U.S. SENATE COMMITTEE HEARING ON PALESTINIAN EDUCATION
U.S. SENATOR ARLEN SPECTER (R-PA) CHAIRMAN U.S. SENATOR ARLEN SPECTER (R-PA) HOLDS HEARING ON PALESTINIAN EDUCATION

Washington Transcript Service

OCTOBER 30, 2003

SPEAKERS:
U.S. SENATOR ARLEN SPECTER (R-PA)
CHAIRMAN
U.S. SENATOR THAD COCHRAN (R-MS)
U.S. SENATOR JUDD GREGG (R-NH)
U.S. SENATOR LARRY CRAIG (R-ID)
U.S. SENATOR KAY BAILEY HUTCHISON (R-TX)
U.S. SENATOR TED STEVENS (R-AK)
U.S. SENATOR MIKE DEWINE (R-OH)
U.S. SENATOR RICHARD SHELBY (R-AL)
U.S. SENATOR TED STEVENS (R-AK)
EX OFFICIO
U.S. SENATOR TOM HARKIN (D-IA)
RANKING MEMBER
U.S. SENATOR ERNEST F. HOLLINGS (D-SC)
U.S. SENATOR DANIEL K. INOUYE (D-HI)
U.S. SENATOR HARRY REID (D-NV)
U.S. SENATOR HERB KOHL (D-WI)
U.S. SENATOR PATTY MURRAY (D-WA)
U.S. SENATOR MARY LANDRIEU (D-CA)
U.S. SENATOR ROBERT C. BYRD (D-WV)
EX OFFICIO
WITNESSES:
ITAMAR MARCUS,
DIRECTOR,
PALESTINIAN MEDIA WATCH
MORTON KLEIN,
PRESIDENT,
ZIONIST ORGANIZATION OF AMERICA
DAVID SATTERFIELD,
DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE
FOR NEAR EASTERN AFFAIRS
WENDY CHAMBERLIN,
ASSISTANT ADMINISTRATOR,
USAID
RICHARD SOLOMON,
PRESIDENT,
U.S. INSTITUTE OF PEACE
STEVE RISKIN,
PROGRAM OFFICER,
GRANT PROGRAM,
U.S. INSTITUTE OF PEACE
ZIAD ASALI,
PRESIDENT,
AMERICAN TASK FORCE ON PALESTINE
HASSAN ABDUL RAHMAN,
CHIEF REPRESENTATIVE,
THE PLO MISSION IN WASHINGTON
[*]

SPECTER: It is 9:30, the scheduled starting time for the hearing
of the Appropriations Subcommittee on Labor, Health, Human Services and
Education.

This morning we are going to take up the issue of education of
Palestinian young people, the issue of the funding of the United States
government for the Palestinian Authority, and the implications on the Mideast
peace process.
A few days ago, I had an opportunity to see some videos of young
Palestinians talking about suicide bombings and the benefits of participating
in that kind of a suicide bombing as an entry to Heaven and as an entry
to Paradise. Notwithstanding some substantial experience of terrorism
and what is going on in the Mideast, I found these videos to be absolutely
shocking -- absolutely shocking that teenagers, attractive young Palestinians,
were stating a view that of the desired goal in life was to be a suicide
bomber, to kill as many Israelis as they could, as an entry to Nirvana,
to Heaven, and to Paradise.
This hearing has been scheduled as promptly as we could because
of our views that these films ought to be known by the people of the United
States and the people of the world as to what is going on. We have seen
and heard a lot about suicide bombings, but I believe these videos have
a portrayal or a depiction of an entirely different level.
Consideration was given to having this hearing in the Foreign
Operation Subcommittee, where I'm a member, and I discussed it with the
chairman there, Senator McConnell, and the decision was made to proceed
in this subcommittee, because the foreign operations appropriations bill
is now under consideration by the full Senate and it was thought this was
the better committee to proceed.
We are going to be hearing from administration authorities.
We're going to be hearing from representatives of the Palestinian Authority.
We're going to be hearing from people who are in favor of the peace process;
people who have questions about the peace process.
Since the Oslo Accords in 1993, the United States government has
contributed $1.2 billion to the Palestinian Authority, almost all of it
going to non-governmental agencies. This year some $20 million has been
allocated under waiver provisions allocated by the Department of State,
and we're going to be questioning the wisdom of that in light of the terrorism
of the Palestinian Authority is a party to. Before, some $36 million went
directly to the Palestinian Authority, so most of the funding has been
going to non-governmental agencies. But even there, there's a substantial
question as to where the money ends up.
In 1995, Senator Shelby and I introduced an amendment to the
foreign operations bill, which prohibited governmental funding to the Palestinian
Authority until the Palestinian Authority made a maximum effort to avoid
terrorism and to recognize the state of Israel.
That is a very, very brief overview and a very brief
introduction.
We have a very distinguished panel of witnesses.
We're going to start, really, out of turn here today, with Mr.
Itamar Marcus, who's the director of the Palestinian Media Watch, showing
us these videos which, as I say, I saw a few days ago, and that will set
the stage for the witnesses from the administration, the witnesses from
the Palestinian Authority and our other witnesses.
Mr. Marcus, if you would identify yourself for the record, I
would appreciate it.
MARCUS: I'm director of Palestinian Media Watch.
SPECTER: And do you have in your possession certain videos?
MARCUS: Yes...
SPECTER: And where were the videos obtained?
MARCUS: Everything that you'll see was filmed on Palestinian
Authority television, this is PBC, Palestinian Broadcast Company, that
is owned and operated by the Palestinian Authority.
SPECTER: All right, would you please show those to the
subcommittee?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(UNKNOWN): "Ask for death" is the message the Palestinian
Authority has been conveying to its children since the start of violence
in October 2000.
In July of 2002, two articulate 11-year-old girls were
interviewed in the studio of official Palestinian television.
What has caused this compelling desire for death among these
children? The Palestinian Authority has been making a supreme effort to
convince their own children that there is no greater achievement than to
die for Allah in battle, known as shahada.
This indoctrination film clip is designed to offset a child's
natural fear of death. It portrays shahada as both heroic and tranquil
and was broadcast repeatedly over the last two years.
The film's hero, a nice-looking school boy, leaves his father a
farewell letter explaining his choice to carry out shahada.
This film was broadcast on official Palestinian television. Most
of the scenes portrayed blood and death. The film ends with this screen
displaying, in Arabic and in English: "Ask for death, the life will be
given to you."
In another film clip, "I Am The Shahid, My Mother," mothers are
urged to be joyous over the shahada death of their own children.
The Palestinian Authority's ministry of education textbooks
portray shahada as an ideal. For example, the home of the shahid appears
in textbooks on four grade levels and extols yearning for death.
A song honoring Wafa Idris, a first woman suicide terrorist, was
broadcast on Palestinian television three times.
The shahada mandate comes from top Palestinian political
leadership. The Palestinian Authority gives significant media exposure
to parents who praise their children's choice to die. Palestinian religious
leaders have been a driving force in calling for Palestinians to kill Jews,
especially through suicide bombings and direct these messages at children,
as well.
Palestinian polls show that 72 to 80 percent of Palestinian
children desire death as shahids. Having been repeatedly exposed to this
indoctrination, Palestinian children today actively set their sites on
shahada as a personal goal.
The Palestinian indoctrination has already led to the death of
Palestinian children. Young children have written farewell letters to
their parents, in which they expressed pride in their desire to die and
then set out on suicide terrorist attacks. The child, Yusef Zakut (ph),
wrote, "Don't cry for me. Bury me with my brothers and with the shahid."

The Palestinian Authority has created a violent, death-seeking
reality for the children. Having taught them to see death for Allah, shahada,
as an ideal which they are expected to achieve. The examples presented
in this report are representative selection demonstrating the comprehensive
campaign waged daily by the Palestinian Authority.
Even if just 1 percent of the children attempt to fulfill their
duty and seek shahada through suicide terrorism, the ramifications will
be cataclysmic. The targets of a future Palestinian terror wave will be
Israel and, in all likelihood, other Western democracies as well.
This education is an indelible stain on Palestinian society and
places the Palestinian Authority among the greatest child abusers in history.

(END VIDEOTAPE)
SPECTER: Thank you very much, Mr. Marcus.
The characterization at the end about child abusers is a vast
understatement. They are civilization abusers. The children are their
means to destroy civilization.
I will now proceed to the administration witnesses.
We will first call on Mr. David Satterfield. Ambassador
Satterfield is the deputy assistant secretary of state for Near Eastern
affairs. He previously had served as ambassador to Lebanon, director of
the State Department's office of Israel and Arab-Israeli affairs on the
National Security Council staff. Mr. Satterfield is presently with the
University of Maryland and Georgetown University.
Welcome, Mr. Satterfield.
We are going to limit the opening statements of witnesses to five
minutes. I have been commenting, when the announcement is made about the
limitation of time, to the memorial service for Ambassador Walter Annenberg,
where the time was three minutes. President Ford, Secretary of State Colin
Powell and I and others were given three minutes, so I want you to know
what a lengthy period five minutes is for an opening statement.
Thank you for joining us, Ambassador Satterfield, and the floor
is yours.
SATTERFIELD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would ask first that
my prepared statement be entered into the record. And I do have some brief
opening remarks to make.
The video clips that we've just seen -- and there are many others
that could have been chosen -- do indeed cultivate a climate of alienation,
hostility, incitement, what has been termed a culture of death rather than
a culture of life, hope and promise. As I said, many more images of this
kind could have been chosen.
The subject of this hearing today is a very serious one for the
administration. Indeed, Mr. Chairman, if we look back on the record of
the modern peace process since 1993, the issue which has been most problematic
for us and for our partners in peacemaking to address has been the challenge
of how one changes minds, hearts, and attitudes.
Frankly, too little attention was given to this challenge during
the many years of the peace process when focus was placed upon treaties,
agreements, understandings. They had their place, certainly, but the fundamental
changes in the way peoples look at each other and deal with other, the
way they look at themselves and their culture and society, that also has
to be addressed.
The administration, in pursuit of President Bush's vision of two
states, Israel and Palestine living together in peace and security, has
been focused upon building institutions for Palestinian statehood, upon
confronting the issue of incitement, incitement to violence, incitement
to death, wherever it may be found. This is a major challenge, and I cannot
minimize for you, Mr. Chairman, the magnitude of this problem.
We have been making efforts to try, with our partners in the
region and outside, with the Palestinian Authority and with the government
of Israel, and with institutions drawn from civil society on both sides,
to find ways in which to tackle this problem. I cannot tell you that this
is an issue which we have succeeded in addressing, which we have succeeded
in transforming from the type of images of hostility and death that you
just saw to something else. But we do believe some progress, and I'll
be quite honest, some progress is being made.
It's most important if we look at how one changes minds and
hearts to begin at the earliest stage possible in changing the nature of
the culture and changing the nature of views of one people toward another.
We have been successful, to an extent, in introducing changes into the
textbooks used by the Palestinian educational system, the public educational
system.
Those textbooks in the past were marked by overt anti-Semitism,
rejection of Israel, images of hostility towards Jews and Israelis, which
were absolutely unacceptable in any climate of peacemaking. The current
textbooks which are in the process of being introduced through grades kindergarten
to 12 sin more now by omission rather than commission.
The images of anti-Semitism have been largely removed, but we
want to see positive images of embracing Israel as a state, Israelis as
a people, put in. We don't just want the absence of negative images.
We want the presence of positive images.
And this is a challenge that remains before us. Some progress,
as I said, has been made, but much more needs to be done.
Mr. Chairman, those images which we witnessed, the challenge that
confronts us as we deal with Israel and Palestinian peacemaking, also is
reflected on a broader regional scale. We are committed to doing everything
possible, not just to addressing the call for death, the call for martyrdom,
which we saw here today, but also the continuing images of anti-Semitism,
rejection of Israel, rejection of Israelis, rejection of Jews as a people
who merit a life in peace and security in the Middle East and elsewhere
throughout the Middle East and the world.
Here, too, the challenge remains before us. Here, too, we have
not been fully successful in our efforts with other governments in the
region -- indeed outside -- in addressing this challenge. But the administration
is fully committed to apply what resources we have to this goal, and we
welcome the opportunity to appear here today in that pursuit. Thank you.

SPECTER: Ambassador Satterfield, the road map states that,
quote, "all official Palestinian institutions must end incitement against
Israel." And the road map requires the Palestinian Authority to, quote,
"undertake efforts on the ground to arrest, disrupt and restrain individuals
and groups conducting and planning violent attacks on Israelis anywhere."

Are those requirements being complied with by the Palestinian
Authority?
SATTERFIELD: No, Mr. Chairman, they are not. We had not seen
those basic steps necessary by the Palestinian Authority to confront violence
and terror being taken to the extent that the road map requires, and indeed
any meaningful progress toward peace mandates.
SPECTER: And the depiction shows Chairman Yasser Arafat on film
talking about shahid. What efforts are being made to combat Arafat's efforts
as depicted and shown on the screen?
SATTERFIELD: Mr. Chairman, the position of this administration
toward Mr. Arafat is very well known. We do not regard him as an interlocutor
for the purposes of peacemaking. We have sought, working with the government
of Israel, working with individuals in the Palestinian Authority and our
partners in the region and the international community, to see an empowered,
credible Palestinian leadership take office and move against terror and
violence as it moves toward the necessary institutional steps required
to see a Palestinian state achieved.
SPECTER: Ambassador Satterfield, in light of this kind of
filming, and in light of the failure of the Palestinian Authority to act
to restrain violence, what's the justification for the United States government
this year advancing $20 million to the Palestinian Authority?
SATTERFIELD: Mr. Chairman, that decision was made after careful
reflection upon the state of Prime Minister Abu Mazen's government, the
credibility of Minister of Finance Salam Fayed, the institutional checks
and balances which both our own system and auditing mechanisms in place,
and the credibility of Abu Mazen and Salem Fayed established. We would
not have taken this step, did not take this step, lightly.
We believe that that decision was appropriate. We believe that
those monies are accountable, fully, and that they went to purposes for
which they were intended.
Obviously, the administration will continue to look very closely
at any future issue of direct financing for the Palestinian Authority.
No such financing is under contemplation at this point. Were we to do
so, we would obviously consult with the Congress. We would also reflect
very carefully on the issue of transparency and accountability for funds.

SPECTER: When you say the monies have been accounted for, where
did the $20 million go?
SATTERFIELD: They went through the ministry of finance, under
mechanisms which we believe are transparent and accountable, for both salary
payments and repayment of debt to the Palestinian private sector.
SPECTER: Can you be more specific than that?
SATTERFIELD: Mr. Chairman, we can provide detail specifics on
where the $20 million went.
SPECTER: We'd like you to...
SATTERFIELD: Be happy to...
SPECTER: ... tell the subcommittee where every dime of the $20
million went.
SATTERFIELD: We'd be happy to.
SPECTER: Essentially what you're saying is $20 million was given
to the Palestinian Authority to help Abu Mazen in his effort to become
the prime minister. Is that about the size of it?
SATTERFIELD: Mr. Chairman, it was given to the Palestinian
Authority in a way that we believe bolstered the credible empowered authority
of Prime Minister Abu Mazen, of the ministry of finance, and institutional
mechanisms and safeguards which have been put in place under Minister Salam
Fayed.
SPECTER: Well, are you essentially saying that the way things
are today, with former Prime Minister Abu Mazen having departed, that there
will be no further payments by the United States government to the Palestinian
Authority?
SATTERFIELD: Mr. Chairman, that was a one-time direct payment;
the only such payment of its kind.
Before we would contemplate any such step in the future, we would
need to see in place an empowered, credible prime minister and cabinet
with unified security services under the control of the prime minister,
and tangible steps taken on the ground to confront terror and violence.

SPECTER: Would you go further and require proof that the
Palestinian Authority is not going to be showing these videos with young
people glorifying self-sacrifice in being suicide bombers?
SATTERFIELD: Mr. Chairman, we have made very clear: The
Palestinian Authority, to be viewed as a credible partner for peace, must
not just move against terror and violence -- that's obviously essential,
critical priority -- but also must move against the climate and culture
of incitement and violence which underlies the actual acts of terror.
SPECTER: Well, that's not quite a flat statement that additional
funds would not be advanced to the Palestinian Authority unless this kind
of propaganda was stopped. But can you give this subcommittee that assurance
flatly?
SATTERFIELD: I can assure you that we would not make any direct
funding available to the Palestinian Authority if there was any question
whatsoever regarding the commitment of that authority translated into action
on the ground, including with respect to incitement.
SPECTER: Like this...
SATTERFIELD: As was seen here.
SPECTER: OK, thank you Ambassador Satterfield. We appreciate
you coming over. We know you had commitments today and have asked to be
excused at this point and you are -- have been excused by the subcommittee.

Customarily we like the witnesses to stay because of there may be
some comments at a later time for response, but I understand your official
duty, so thank you.
SATTERFIELD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, appreciate this
opportunity.
SPECTER: Our next witness is a deputy assistant administrator
for Asia and Near East, Mr. James Kunder, director for Afghan reconstruction.
Mr. Kunder received his master's degree in international relations from
Georgetown, and his bachelor's in political science from Harvard University.

Thank you for joining us, Mr. Kunder, and we look forward to your
testimony.
KUNDER: Thank you Mr. Chairman. I have a prepared statement
with your permission I'd like to submit for the record.
SPECTER: Your statement will be made a part of the record.
KUNDER: I want to give a quick overview of U.S. foreign
assistance program in the areas in which the committee has expressed an
interest.
But just to start with, a personal comment: USAID throughout the
world, with the support of taxpayer dollars, uses the media for a number
of positive what we refer to as social marketing activities, in AIDS prevention
and better health care, participation of girls in school. And I just have
to say, at a personal level, to see this kind of perversion of media targeted
at children, knowing the powerful impact the media has on children, it's
an abomination to see this thing firsthand.
The U.S. Agency for International Development program targeted at
the Palestinians is, as you described earlier, primarily targeted at international
or Palestinian nongovernmental organizations, with the exception of the
$20 million direct cash transfer this past year.
It works in the area of humanitarian assistance and more broadly
at building Palestinian civil society so that there are voices of moderation
in the political debate in Palestine. And that includes support for independent
media organizations that show debate in the Palestinian Legislative Council
and otherwise bring in groups whose voices might not be heard in the Palestinian
debate. Following the congressional guidance and the law, we do not give
direct assistance to the Palestinian Broadcasting Company.
We recognize that our attempts to bring voices of moderation into
the political process, however, is subject to diversion of resources and,
therefore, we have put in place a range of safeguards, including the vetting
within the American embassy of all of the organizations, all of the grantees
and program partners with which we work.
We have in all of our grant agreements a certification
requirement that the organization receiving U.S. taxpayer dollars is not
passing any of that money through to terrorist organizations.
We have an extensive oversight operation where, consistent with
the security situation on the ground, either U.S. government direct- hire
employees or contractors are out monitoring the use of our funds to ensure
that there are not abuses or diversions and we are discussing these issues
on a regular basis with the Israeli authorities in the West Bank and Gaza.

So, from our view, the totality of the U.S. foreign aid program
is contributing to moderate voices being part of the Palestinian debate
and we've implemented a range of safeguards that we think ensure that U.S.
taxpayer dollars are going to the purposes for which they are intended.

And I'd be glad to answer any questions, sir.
SPECTER: Well, thank you very much, Mr. Kunder.
We have one further witness on this panel, Mr. Richard Solomon,
president of the U.S. Institute for Peace. We'd like Mr. Solomon to come
forward at this time.
Dr. Solomon has served as the president of the U.S. Institute of
Peace since 1993. He previously served as assistant secretary of state
for East Asia and Pacific affairs and director of policy planning at the
Department of State. He holds a Ph.D. in political science from the Massachusetts
Institute of Technology.
Thank you for joining us, Dr. Solomon, and we look forward to
your testimony.
SOLOMON: Good morning, Mr. Chairman and I -- my colleagues
really appreciate to be with you this morning. As you know, our institution
reports directly to the Labor, Health and Human Services Committee. You
fund our work directly in as much as we're an independent federal institution.

Normally, since I come up asking for financial support, it's a
pleasure to be able to describe to you some of our activities that relate
to this very serious issue that is on the agenda today.
The Institute of Peace, as I think you know, was created as an
educational institution and what I will describe is a shift in our work
over the last 20 years from educational activities largely focused here
within the United States to activities in zones of conflict around the
world. And those activities very substantially focus on the effort to
promote educational reform in Muslim societies, ranging from northern Africa,
the Middle East through South Asia and Southeast Asia.
Our objective is to try to mobilize those interested in reform,
reconciliation within these societies in the interest of promoting peaceful
resolution of disputes, reconciliation, tolerance and certainly countering
incitement. And what we have discovered, through a decade of activities
that began with work after the Dayton Accords, when we went into the Balkans
and worked with educators to promote an educational system that had been
corrupted by the Milosevic regime, was, of course, that education is a
very powerful tool for reform, for teaching reconciliation and breaking
the cycles of hatred and violence.
Indeed, the power of education is precisely why the extremists
have been trying to capture the madrassa system and turn it against even
existing Muslim governments; whether it's in Pakistan, Malaysia, or Indonesia.
And so our work is attempting to empower those who seek to use the educational
system for purposes of reconciliation.
One of the dilemmas our friends in these various parts of the
world face is that many of them do not have the national government resources
to fully fund their educational system, so that money comes in from abroad
from what you might characterize as interested parties who are trying to
turn the madrassa system in the direction of the kind of horrific propagation
of violence that we saw in the opening video.
Let me describe three very brief examples of the kind of work
that the United States Institute of Peace supports through its full range
of programming: our grant giving, our fellowship activity, our education
rule-of-law programs and our professional training activities.
The first example would be the effort to support the anti-
incitement commission that was established after the 1998 Wye River agreement.
And two of our board members -- former board members now -- Father Theodore
Hesburgh of Notre Dame and Shibley Telhami, professor at the University
of Maryland, were on the Anti-Incitement Commission, and two of my colleagues
who are with me here today, Dr. Jeff Helsing, who is with the education
program, and Steven Riskin, who's with our grant commission, they are more
specialists on this region than certainly I am.
They briefed the commission on our experience about educational
reform and efforts to limit incitement. Unfortunately, as Father Hesburgh
concluded, after a number of efforts to engage both sides in the region
was that issues of limiting incitement were just not open to discussion.
This is the late '90s.
The second example is our support for Seeds of Peace, an effort
to bring teenagers from the Israeli, Palestinian societies together in
the pristine, secure environment of northern Maine, an effort that's gone
on for 10 years and has engaged over 2,500 teenagers.
I think the Seeds of Peace experience, which is documented in a
book that we've published, written by John Wallach -- the late John Wallach,
who tragically died rather early, was that this kind of a cloistered experience,
if run professionally, can help to break stereotypes, hostilities, establish
friendships, and indeed what we find is that many of the Palestinian kids
that went back to society totally unsupportive of this reconciliation work
demonstrated real courage in resisting the return to the kind of attitudes
that we've seen here.
The third project was an effort in which we supported, a book
project by George Washington University Professor Dr. Nathan Brown, who
analyzed the situation in the Palestinians areas of reform following the
Oslo Accords. And his conclusions -- and he should speak for himself --
was that there had been modest change in the direction of a moving away
from the kind of inciteful textbooks and the educational material that
we've seen here today, but clearly much more incitement than we want to
see in these incidences, but some movement away from what it had been in
earlier times. And the clear fact is that the political context which
would support the moderating efforts of work like Seeds of Peace or the
kinds of reform efforts that Dr. Brown describes are at this point in time
just not supportive of significant reform.
So in conclusion, based on the experience of institute work, I
would say the four issues I would stress is that intergenerational cycles
of conflict and hatred can be broken, especially if you work with teenagers,
those who are much more impressionable, but unfortunately, as we've seen
in these videos, you can also see the opposite effect.
Secondly, educational reform is not a short-term process. Our
work with educational reformers in Northern Ireland indicates that this
is a decades-long effort.
Thirdly, we have found professional educators who are receptive
to reform, and our efforts are to support at the civil society level those
who want to see a curriculum that will encourage reconciliation and peace.

But fourth and most disturbing, of course, is that the political
context, the leadership that would encourage these kinds of reforms, is
in the Palestinian areas apparently totally lacking at this point, and
unless we have that kind of leadership it seems unlikely we will see sustained
efforts to promote this kind of reform.
Thank you.
SPECTER: Well, Dr. Solomon, when you talk about breaking the
pattern, if there is education of teenagers isn't it all going in the wrong
direction? Is there any effort being made to educate teenagers away from
the culture of violence?
SOLOMON: We have seen some efforts of that sort. We have...
SPECTER: Such as what?
SOLOMON: Well, here again, I think at this point we may want my
colleagues to give you much more detail. My formal testimony gives a number
of examples of institutions of civil society, not associated directly with
the Palestinian Authority, that are trying to promote a curriculum of reconciliation.

SPECTER: Well, what are they accomplishing?
RISKIN: Well, the institute has supported several initiatives...
SPECTER: Well, we hadn't planned to have more witnesses, but
step up and identify yourself and...
SOLOMON: This is Steven Riskin of our grant program.
SPECTER: What is your name, sir?
RISKIN: Steve Riskin. I work in the Institute's grant program.
SPECTER: I would like to know specifically what the Institute of
Peace is doing. We fund you $17.5 million from this subcommittee, and
I believe there's going to be an additional allocation of funding in the
supplemental appropriation. And my question to you: What specifically
are you doing to counteract that kind of virulent terrorism which is depicted
in those videos?
RISKIN: We're a bridge builder. We work with a variety of
organizations in the region that are moderate and that are interested in
removing the hate...
SPECTER: What are they doing?
RISKIN: In one instance, for example, Yesodot, which is the
Center for the Study of Torah and Democracy, they are bringing teachers
together...
SPECTER: Study of Torah and Democracy?
RISKIN: Torah and Muslim, Christian and Jewish liturgy to talk
about and to ferret out the areas where there is promotion of tolerance
and reconciliation.
SPECTER: Are you reaching teenagers such as those you saw in the
videos?
RISKIN: The work that we are doing with the teachers does
trickle down into the classroom. We have found that the religious communities,
particularly, and educators -- but particularly the religious community
were not involved or engaged in the Oslo process, and this is one area
that in the future they will not only be -- they have been -- religion
has been seen as being an impediment to the peace process. But here are
people on both sides, religious people, who are committed to promoting
non-violence and peace.
One of the other activities that we have been involved in as an
institute is the Alexandria Declaration. David Smock, who works in our
religion and peacemaking program, has been a proponent of this, and this
brought together Jewish, Christian and Muslim leaders in Cairo, and they
signed a declaration in support of the peace process and non-violent approaches
to resolving the conflict. And there is an array of activities that are
flowing from that.
SPECTER: I think at the level that you describe its commendable,
but it's not too impressive to talk about trickle down. How much of it
reaches the kind of young people we've seen on these videos?
RISKIN: There are other organizations that we have and are
supporting, like Neve Shalom, in addition to the Seeds of Peace program,
that directly relates to youth and gets them engaged with the other in
mutual understanding...
SPECTER: Palestinian youth?
RISKIN: Palestinian youth. There are organizations that work
both in Israel with Jews and Arabs, and across the Green Line, because
it's our view that what is happening in relations between Jews and Arabs
in Israel does have an impact across the Green Line as well.
But there are materials that are being developed, human rights
materials at the Hebrew University, both for Jewish and Arab classrooms.
There is teacher training that's going on. And this is certainly connected
to moving toward a resolution of the conflict.
SPECTER: How would you evaluate the effectiveness of all of that
contrasted with these propaganda videos, which are shown on Palestinian
television?
RISKIN: Well, this is a difficult environment, obviously. The
last three years the intensity of the conflict it is very difficult to
say, "OK, here's a huge success that we have had."
We're working with courageous moderates, educators, and in some
cases legal specialists, across the Green Line. These are people who are
committed to working together to resolve the conflict.
These are two competing narratives on the education front. We
have supported work -- and it's in the testimony -- Jewish and Arab educators
together looking at what is in the textbooks and seeing how events were
portrayed and trying to work out, not a unified history, but at least an
appreciation that can mend the -- and work has been done to translate that
appreciation into material that's used in classrooms.
SPECTER: Let me come back to my question. How effective is that
against this kind of video propaganda?
RISKIN: That's a difficult question to answer. We know it is
effective with the teachers who are engaged in these activities, because
they are committed to working with the other in mutual understanding.
And it is our hope -- and this work is to expand the pool of moderate in
this case educators working throughout the system.
SPECTER: We have seen the textbooks in the Palestinian schools
for a decade or more preaching violence, terrorism and hatred. Have those
textbooks been changed?
RISKIN: Dr. Solomon referred to the study here that we funded,
in part, that looked at those textbooks. And before 1993, as you may know,
the textbooks that were used in Gaza and the West Bank were Egyptian and
Jordanian and there was hateful material in those and those are no longer,
by and large, used.
There is now new material coming out and the study that we funded
indicates that progress has been made. Still, there are problems with
it, but significant progress about removing hateful references to Jews
and Israel -- in fact, the omissions that I think were mentioned earlier
talking about Israel from a Palestinian perspective isn't a difficult thing
to do as is for Israelis talking about where you draw the lines for a --
for a -- state. It's very difficult to present maps, for example, when
you don't know where the limits of your...
SPECTER: They're drawing the maps of the delineation of the
states. Do current textbooks given to Palestinian schools to fourth graders,
fifth graders, sixth graders, and seventh graders, contain hateful information
about Israel and Jews?
RISKIN: I have not done the study of those textbooks. I can
only refer to some of the work that's been done here.
It's been less than 10 years since there was a ministry of
education and there had -- reform is under way and I think its -- textbooks
at a few levels -- and there will be speakers later who can address this
-- there are textbooks at some of the levels that have come out that are
a step clearly in the right direction of removing hateful material.
SOLOMON: Mr. Chairman, let me just add...
SPECTER: Excuse me, Dr. Solomon.
The subcommittee would like an answer to the question
specifically. It shouldn't be too hard to answer. Those materials are
available and the subcommittee would like to know whether currently the
textbooks being used in Palestinian schools have hateful and inciteful
matters against Israel and Jews.
You wanted to say something Dr. Solomon?
SOLOMON: Well, I was just going to repeat, I think, my bottom
line on this is until you get a leadership in the Palestinian Authority
that is committed to reform and reconciliation the people that we work
with in civil society are not going to be reinforced, empowered, by their
own leadership and so that puts a substantial constraint on the impact
of the kinds of things we're supporting.
But you were certainly entitled to a full accounting of the
projects that we support and as best an answer to your question as we can
provide you.
SPECTER: Well, we'd like to have it, because every year we take
a look at your request for money, and the budget is extremely tight and
we'd like to know what value is being received by the United States government
for the $17 billion a year.
Mr. Kunder, I note that the administration requested $75 million
in direct aid for the Palestinian Authority for the fiscal year 2004. The
bill drafted by the Senate does not contain a specific dollar amount for
the Palestinians. Is there still a request by the administration for $75
million in direct aid for the Palestinian Authority, or has that changed
with the deterioration of the Palestinian government and the change of
prime minister?
KUNDER: Sir, I think Ambassador Satterfield stated exactly what
the situation is now that there would be no additional -- direct assistance
would be considered on a case-by-case basis. There would not be additional
assistance except in those cases in the circumstances being described that
all those guarantees would be met. So I take his answer to your earlier
question as the current state of play.
SPECTER: Mr. Kunder, where you fund humanitarian projects in the
West Bank and Gaza, does that result in the indirect release of funds which
can be used by the Palestinian Authority for terrorism?
KUNDER: Sir, whenever we're acting as stewards of the taxpayer
dollars anywhere around the world, I think the question of fungibility
always comes up. And we cannot deny that in any circumstance a dollar
is a dollar, so that a dollar going to any entity or any nation or any
NGO around the world can be seen as a dollar that that organization does
not have to locate or access from some other source. So at that level
of generality, of course, dollars going to any entity provide resources
that don't have to be raised somewhere else.
SPECTER: Well, it obviously poses a very difficult source. You
don't want to free up money to go to terrorist operations. And I know
there's a real effort to try to stimulate some moderate view within the
Palestinian Authority to try to advance the peace process. But to the
extent possible are you looking at situations where USAID might release
money for terrorism to avoid it were it all possible?
KUNDER: We have a specific certification required of all of our
grantees that's quite specific -- we'd certainly make a copy of it available
to you -- that goes into quite detailed requirements by any of our recipients
in terms of what they can do and cannot do in terms of the...
SPECTER: I'm familiar with the certification; it provides that
the Palestinian entities will not provide material support or resources
to any individual or entity which it knows or has reason to know is acting
as an agent or any individual or entity that advocates, plans, sponsors,
engages in or is engaged in terrorist activity. So that's what you were
referring to?
KUNDER: Yes, sir.
SPECTER: And we've been advised that many Palestinian partners
have refused to sign the pledge, is that correct?
KUNDER: That's correct, yes, sir.
SPECTER: When they refused to sign the pledge, do you give them
American money?
KUNDER: I'm sorry, sir, they...
SPECTER: When they refused to sign the pledge, do you advance
U.S. aid to them?
KUNDER: If this is an -- the certification is an absolute
requirement to receive USAID assistance. If an organization does not sign
the certification it will not receive any assistance.
SPECTER: OK, that's good news.
Well, thank you very much, gentlemen. It's a very, very
difficult issue, but what I think we have to look for is something that
does hand-to-hand combat with those videos. Is there any avenue available
for the United States or any other entity to put on videos to compete with
the videos which we've seen?
KUNDER: Sir, if I could, on page three of my testimony I didn't
capture it in my quick overview, but we go into some of the peace curriculum
and conflict resolution work that is being done, the development of curriculum
to be inserted into the Palestinian school systems. And these programs,
in answer to your question about what kind of impact, have reached tens
of thousands of students. And we will be glad to provide detailed descriptions
of those programs.
So there are certainly competing curricula out there.
SPECTER: Never mind curricula, any television? Curricula is
very passive. Television is very active. Any competing television?
KUNDER: Yes, sir. We are, both in terms of participation -- we
are funding the coverage, for example, of town meetings and alternative
moderate voices to lobby the Palestinian Legislative Council. Because
we know the power of this kind of media, we have actually funded some soap
operas that portray, and sometimes in some pretty controversial terms,
Israeli-Palestinian dialogue.
So, yes, sir, we take your point and we're doing some of that.
SPECTER: Anything that head-on hits the inducement to these
young Palestinians to commit suicide with a bombing?
KUNDER: Sir, to the best of my knowledge I don't think so, but I
will follow up and get that information to the committee.
SPECTER: Well, it's a subtle matter as to how you combat it. Do
you have people working on it to figure out how you do it, where you have
some perhaps other Palestinian teenagers talking about living and affirming
life and not hatred and suicide?
KUNDER: Frankly, sir, your hearing here today has -- will cause
us to look at all these issues more sharply in the future and we will look
at that.
SPECTER: Well, that's the first time I've heard of any hearing
doing any good, but it...
KUNDER: I'm quite serious; I'm not saying that to make you feel
good, Chairman, I'm quite serious.
SPECTER: All right, let us know what is being done at the
present time to combat that kind of inciting video of the suicide bombers
and what you have plans to do to come to hand-to-hand combat with that
kind of trash garbage incitement.
KUNDER: Yes, sir.
SPECTER: OK, thank you very much gentlemen.
I'd like to proceed now to our second panel: Dr. Hassan Abdul
Rahman, Dr. Ziad Asali and Dr. Morton Klein, and also Mr. Itamar Marcus.

Mr. Marcus, you've already identified yourself and thank you for
making those videos available to members of the Senate earlier and for
providing them to the hearing today. The floor is now yours for five minutes.

MARCUS: OK, thank you.
One of the challenges I think facing any funding of the
Palestinian Authority is that not only do the Palestinians use television,
as we've seen, the Palestinians use the full range of social structures
and cultural structures within Palestinian society in order to promote
these values. And I want to give you some examples, and you can actually
follow with some of these texts here on the screen.
So, for example, this summer there was a whole summer camp
infrastructure, which we would presume to get children out of the cities
and out into the country. And yet the summer camps infrastructure was
one that was focused, as well, on the suicide terrorists.
So, for example, there was a summer camp named after Wafa Idris,
who was the first woman suicide bomber. And if you look at the bottom
of the article here on the screen you'll see that UNICEF was thanked for
its support of the camps at the closing ceremony. So you have a camp named
after the first woman suicide bomber, UNICEF funding for this camp. We
had another camp for the Ayyat al-Akhras, 17-year-old girl, youngest suicide
bomber, again this summer so that summer camps are used as this means as
well.
Sporting events, which again is entertainment around the world
for children, have been a means, also, to raise and to create role models
for children who are terrorists.
So that, for example, just this past month, there was a major,
major soccer tournament in the Palestinian Authority. The sponsors of
the tournament were Saeb Erekat, Yasser Arafat, Jibril Rajoub, the minister
of sport, the mufti, all of the heads of the Palestinian Authority sponsoring
a soccer tournament, and each of the 24 teams was named after a different
shahid, a different martyr; including people like Yechya Ayash, who was
the first Hamas engineer, Dalal Mughrabi, who was involved in a hijacking
killing 36 including an American. So all of the heads of the Palestinian
Authority this summer put their names on a sports tournament glorifying
terrorists.
And this role modeling, by the way, and naming after terrorists
is not limited to terrorists who have killed Israelis. It includes terrorists
who have killed Americans in Iraq so, for example, we found in the Palestinian
newspaper just four days after the first suicide Iraqi terrorist killed
four U.S. Marines, the P.A. renamed the square in Jenin after that suicide
terrorist. So this role modeling and turning the terrorists into heroes
is directed not just at Israelis but at Americans as well.
Now I want to step back for one moment and I want to show you a
film here. We've been discussing the level of terrorism, but what we haven't
discussed at all is the level of ideology and I think this must be understood
because unless we understand why the Palestinians are teaching their children
to fight, we won't understand why they are participating in terrorism.

And I want to show you a short item here from an educational
program on Palestinian television. It's significant; the person speaking
is the head of a history department and in understanding what he is saying
to these children you will get a sense of the foundation of the conflict
that we are having today that continues until today.
(VIDEOTAPE PRESENTATION)
MARCUS: I start with this because I think this is why we still
have a conflict today; this message we have heard hundreds and hundreds
of times. Two Palestinians, both in formal and informal structures. "All
of Jewish history is lies; everything belongs to the Palestinians."
Interestingly, the new prime minister made this comment which
appeared in a Palestinian daily just after President Bush had made the
speech in June of this year talking about the Palestinians recognizing
Israel as a Jewish state. And he said, "What is the meaning and the concept
of a Jewish state? Does this means that this Jewish state, this is Sunni,
this is Shiite, this one is Christian? These differences could plunge
the region into whirlpool."
Even the new prime minister refuses to acknowledge that the Jews
are a nation having a right to a state; he puts us in the category of a
religion. And so we're seeing that this message isn't coming in the formal
education, it's coming from the political leader. It permeates Palestinian
society, and I feel this is a foundation of the conflict that continues
today.
This message continues even in the new schoolbooks that -- I will
beg to differ, it's not just a sin of omission in the new schoolbooks;
the new schoolbooks continue to delegitimize Israel. And I have a couple
of items here that appear in the very new schoolbooks. Israel is defined
as a colony and under the chapter on colonialism, "Palestine faced British
occupation after the First World War and Israeli occupation in 1948."
Israel it's foreign; they are an occupier.
Referring to Israeli cities and regions, like Beersheba on the
Negev, they're talked about Southern Palestine. The Sea of Galilee is
referred to as part of Palestine. There is no recognition in the schoolbooks.
People look at the maps, as you see here, in the Palestinian schoolbooks
and say, "It is because there are no final borders"; that is not the way
they're presenting it to their children. They're presenting it to their
children that this is Palestine. These are all pictures from new schoolbooks...

SPECTER: Mr. Marcus, you're a minute overtime. Could you sum up
at this point?
MARCUS: Yes. I just want to put the two messages together with
this final short video that you will see.
This is from a Palestinian graduation this summer, and it
combines the ideology as well as the desire that the children are being
taught for the use of force to achieve their goals. Again, this is Palestinian
television, a film from a high school graduation.
(VIDEOTAPE PRESENTATION)
MARCUS: OK, this summarized the essential conflict. Israeli
cities are still being portrayed to the children as Palestine and they
will liberate it through their stone and their knife. Thank you.
SPECTER: Thank you very much, Mr. Marcus.
We now turn to Dr. Hassan Abdul Rahman, chief representative of
the Palestinian Liberation Organization and the Palestinian Authority in
the United States. He attended universities in Puerto Rico before earning
his Ph.D. from the City University of New York.
And thank you for joining us; Dr. Rahman, and we look forward to
your testimony.
RAHMAN: Thank you, Senator Specter.
Let me announce at the start on the personal note I have four
children, three boys and a girl. The four of them attended the camp of
Seeds of Peace. I am a founder, or co-founder, with John Wallach -- late
John Wallach -- of that organization and my name was on the board of that
organization.
I'm a believer in the co-existence between the Palestinians and
the Israelis. I have struggled for that objective since my beginning as
a representative of the PLO in New York and the United Nations since 1974.

I don't need to establish my credentials as a supporter of peace.
I have on many occasions on Arabic television, as well as on American television,
objected, condemned suicide bombing. I am opposed to it, I am against
it, and this is the official policy, also, of the Palestinian National
Authority.
Mr. Marcus lives on a settlement on the West Bank. It is stolen
from the Palestinian people; it is a territory that has been taken away
from Palestinians in violation of the policy of the United States government,
which opposes the building of settlements in the Palestinian territories,
it is in violation of the fourth (ph) Geneva Convention, which considers
the transfer of population of the occupying power to the occupied territory
as illegal and as a war crime.
Having said that, I really hesitated before coming to appear
before this subcommittee for the very simple reason: There are two parties
to this conflict, Palestinian and Israeli. And there is incitement on
both sides. I see only the Palestinians brought to task here, and no mention
what the Israeli media, what the Israeli textbooks say or do not say about
the Palestinians. I would have liked the chairman, in the spirit of fairness,
to have a hearing on the incitement in both textbooks and both medias,
Palestinians as well as Israeli.
And then we would have not hesitated to appear before this
committee, because there are studies that are made on Israeli textbooks,
1,600 textbooks that never mention the word "Palestine" or the history
of the Palestinian people in the history of Palestine. Whenever there is
a reference to Palestine it is called Israel.
Mr. Marcus and his colleagues, the 200,000 armed settlers in the
West Bank and Gaza who stole the land of the Palestinians, are armed, and
they call the West Bank and Gaza as Judea and Samaria, they never call
it by its name.
No amount of education or teaching of the Palestinians, how
important it is, will change certain realities, Mr. Specter.
One, that there is three generations of Palestinians who have
been living in the military occupation: 35 years of brutal military occupation,
where bulldozers are used to demolish homes, where Apache helicopters given
by the United States to the government of Israel are attacking civilians
in Gaza and elsewhere, where the Israeli army sanctions the assassination,
extrajudicially, of Palestinian leaders without what you cherish the most,
the due process of law, in this country.
People do not need to be told that the Israeli settlers and the
Israeli soldiers are bad. They have to live in the West Bank and Gaza
in order to dislike and even hate the Israelis. Because the average Palestinian,
Mr. Specter, do not see (inaudible) in Ramallah. The average Palestinian
encounters two kinds of Israelis and both are armed: the soldier and the
settler. And both are there to humiliate, oppress, suppress the Palestinian.

If any American would live holed in his home for 20 or 30 days
under curfew I'm sure they would be angry. And anger is expressed by different
people in different ways. I, personally, would express my anger in a different
way. Others express it in a totally different way, which we do not sanction.

But instead of cursing the darkness, we have to light a candle.
We have to stop Israelis from building more settlements. We have to improve
the conditions for the Palestinians so they can have a stake in changing
their attitude, that when they see their parents, their neighbors, their
mothers, fathers, their sisters getting (inaudible) on checkpoints, humiliated
by Israeli soldiers, I assure you they will be angry, and you would be
angry.
I looked at those distorted tapes collected by Mr. Marcus, and I
can take an issue with every statement that was made there. But that's
not the objective and my goal today, because they are taken out of context,
they are translated out of the culture's meaning of what is said.
I remember that the battle cry for Patrick Henry, who wanted to
freedom, he said, "Give me liberty or give me death," and that was the
battle cry for the independence of this country. Every society has its
way of encouraging people to make sacrifices for independence, for freedom
and for dignity.
We need an understanding from you and from the Congress of the
United States that the only way to end incitement is by drying up the causes
of incitement: freedom for the Palestinians so they can live as equal
neighbors to Israel. But I assure you that the continued occupation of
the Palestinians, the denial of the God-given right to live as a free,
dignified people in their own country, is the biggest source of incitement.
Let's deal with the real issue and not with the effect. Let's deal with
the causes of incitement.
Thank you.
SPECTER: Well, thank you, Dr. Rahman.
We invited you here today, and others, to speak on behalf of the
Palestinian Authority because of our interest in hearing what you had to
say. And when you asked for time to state the incitement by Israel, we're
prepared to give you that time.
You spoke for longer than the allotted time, but there was quite
a bit on the other side, and I thought as a matter of fairness to hear
you out and wouldn't care to hear you further.
RAHMAN: Thank you.
SPECTER: If you care to amplify as to the incitement on the part
of the Israelis, we're prepared to give you whatever time you'd like to
have.
RAHMAN: No, Mr. Chairman, I know you are a fair person and I
know that you want to help. But again, what I wanted to say that after
the Wye River Accords, we established a trilateral commission of the Israelis,
Palestinians and Americans to monitor the media and monitor the incitement
on both sides.
And a great deal has been done in that regard. And we continue
to express our intention to work with the Israelis and with the Americans
to monitor the incitement on both sides.
But I cannot accept that the basis for the position of the United
States Senate will be a distorted videotape collected by Mr. Marcus, who
is a settler on the West Bank. That is absolutely unfair to the Palestinians,
because those are collections of items taken out of context, Senator.
They are not accurate translations of what has been said.
SPECTER: Well, Dr. Rahman, let's examine that.
Customarily, we go through the entire panel before questioning,
but we're going to proceed just a little differently because of what you've
said. I'm going to take a few minutes, then yield to Senator Clinton to
give her an opportunity to raise questions.
Were you saying the comments were taken out of context? We just
saw the videos, and I am not in a position to have translated them, but
we have seen teenagers and an 11-year-old girl say that she was prepared
to give her life as a suicide bomber in order to go to Heaven. Was that
an inaccurate translation of what she said?
RAHMAN: Well, what we -- well, she was saying she was making a
religious statement. Which every religion -- if I go to the Torah, I would
find references that I may not like. And I have, in fact, a statement
here about what happened in Jericho -- after the invasion of Jericho, and
it really -- I may not like it.
So we cannot translate religious statements into policy. There's
a difference there, Mr. Chairman, I'm sure that you are aware of that.
So we keep the religious discussion out of it.
When there's a reference to the professor of history, who said
something about the Wall, that it did not exist. But if you ask the Jewish,
followers of the Jewish religion, and ask them, "This Mohammed, was he
a prophet?" they would tell you no. I don't take that as an offense; that
is their religious belief. We have to put religion aside and we deal with
politics here.
If we want to take a statement that's made by a sheikh in a
mosque and base our policy on that statement, we go nowhere, and we would
reach the wrong conclusions.
I am saying that we have textbooks that we have to deal with. We
have television we have to deal with. We have incitement, yes. But the
incitement is the product of the conditions that exist in the Palestinian
territory.
SPECTER: Dr. Rahman, how about the part where the young man had
written a letter to his father saying "Do not grieve for me; I have given
my life for my country and I have sacrificed myself so that I can go to
Heaven"? Was that also a religious statement, or wasn't that a statement
by a young man who had, in fact, been a suicide bomber?
RAHMAN: If I remember correctly what was said, the kid is 14
years old, he is saying to his father, "When I become 18, I'm going to
fight for my country and be a shahid for my country." He did not do it;
he was not a shahid yet.
SPECTER: Dr. Rahman...
RAHMAN: If I quote correctly what I saw.
SPECTER: But, Dr. Rahman, isn't it true that there have been
very young people, Palestinians, who have become suicide bombers really
in carrying out just exactly the theme which we saw on the videos?
RAHMAN: Yes, sir, I believe that there has been, and there is,
and there may be going to be more suicide bombing.
Because you go today to Gaza, where 70 percent of the population
are unemployed and hungry, where do they turn to? They turn to God, they
turn to the mosque, and they are recruited there by the most vicious people.
So instead of why did not in the year 2000, Senator Specter, did not have
one suicide bombing? Why not? Because there was a light at the end of
the tunnel. People felt that finally they would be free. Not one single
suicide bombing in the year 2000 until the beginning of the intifada.
Why? People felt there was a possibility for peace.
So instead of cursing the darkness, we have really to light
candles. And candles are by telling people, "Listen, no more Jewish settlement
on Palestinian territories, there is no apartheid wall on the West Bank,
there is no assassination, no demolishing reforms, no destruction of crops,
no, no, no." Then people will have something to look for. But as long
as those things are continuing, I cannot guarantee that there will not
be suicide bombings.
SPECTER: Well, Dr. Rahman, I agree with you totally that, as you
have articulated, instead of cursing the darkness, let us light a candle.
Where do we go from here? When former Prime Minister Barak offered statehood
at Camp David and it was declined by Chairman Arafat, where do we go from