U.S. SENATE COMMITTEE HEARING ON PALESTINIAN EDUCATION
U.S. SENATOR ARLEN SPECTER (R-PA) CHAIRMAN U.S. SENATOR ARLEN SPECTER (R-PA) HOLDS HEARING ON PALESTINIAN EDUCATION

Washington Transcript Service

OCTOBER 30, 2003

SPEAKERS:
U.S. SENATOR ARLEN SPECTER (R-PA)
CHAIRMAN
U.S. SENATOR THAD COCHRAN (R-MS)
U.S. SENATOR JUDD GREGG (R-NH)
U.S. SENATOR LARRY CRAIG (R-ID)
U.S. SENATOR KAY BAILEY HUTCHISON (R-TX)
U.S. SENATOR TED STEVENS (R-AK)
U.S. SENATOR MIKE DEWINE (R-OH)
U.S. SENATOR RICHARD SHELBY (R-AL)
U.S. SENATOR TED STEVENS (R-AK)
EX OFFICIO
U.S. SENATOR TOM HARKIN (D-IA)
RANKING MEMBER
U.S. SENATOR ERNEST F. HOLLINGS (D-SC)
U.S. SENATOR DANIEL K. INOUYE (D-HI)
U.S. SENATOR HARRY REID (D-NV)
U.S. SENATOR HERB KOHL (D-WI)
U.S. SENATOR PATTY MURRAY (D-WA)
U.S. SENATOR MARY LANDRIEU (D-CA)
U.S. SENATOR ROBERT C. BYRD (D-WV)
EX OFFICIO
WITNESSES:
ITAMAR MARCUS,
DIRECTOR,
PALESTINIAN MEDIA WATCH
MORTON KLEIN,
PRESIDENT,
ZIONIST ORGANIZATION OF AMERICA
DAVID SATTERFIELD,
DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE
FOR NEAR EASTERN AFFAIRS
WENDY CHAMBERLIN,
ASSISTANT ADMINISTRATOR,
USAID
RICHARD SOLOMON,
PRESIDENT,
U.S. INSTITUTE OF PEACE
STEVE RISKIN,
PROGRAM OFFICER,
GRANT PROGRAM,
U.S. INSTITUTE OF PEACE
ZIAD ASALI,
PRESIDENT,
AMERICAN TASK FORCE ON PALESTINE
HASSAN ABDUL RAHMAN,
CHIEF REPRESENTATIVE,
THE PLO MISSION IN WASHINGTON
[*]

SPECTER: It is 9:30, the scheduled starting time for the hearing
of the Appropriations Subcommittee on Labor, Health, Human Services and
Education.

This morning we are going to take up the issue of education of
Palestinian young people, the issue of the funding of the United States
government for the Palestinian Authority, and the implications on the Mideast
peace process.
A few days ago, I had an opportunity to see some videos of young
Palestinians talking about suicide bombings and the benefits of participating
in that kind of a suicide bombing as an entry to Heaven and as an entry
to Paradise. Notwithstanding some substantial experience of terrorism
and what is going on in the Mideast, I found these videos to be absolutely
shocking -- absolutely shocking that teenagers, attractive young Palestinians,
were stating a view that of the desired goal in life was to be a suicide
bomber, to kill as many Israelis as they could, as an entry to Nirvana,
to Heaven, and to Paradise.
This hearing has been scheduled as promptly as we could because
of our views that these films ought to be known by the people of the United
States and the people of the world as to what is going on. We have seen
and heard a lot about suicide bombings, but I believe these videos have
a portrayal or a depiction of an entirely different level.
Consideration was given to having this hearing in the Foreign
Operation Subcommittee, where I'm a member, and I discussed it with the
chairman there, Senator McConnell, and the decision was made to proceed
in this subcommittee, because the foreign operations appropriations bill
is now under consideration by the full Senate and it was thought this was
the better committee to proceed.
We are going to be hearing from administration authorities.
We're going to be hearing from representatives of the Palestinian Authority.
We're going to be hearing from people who are in favor of the peace process;
people who have questions about the peace process.
Since the Oslo Accords in 1993, the United States government has
contributed $1.2 billion to the Palestinian Authority, almost all of it
going to non-governmental agencies. This year some $20 million has been
allocated under waiver provisions allocated by the Department of State,
and we're going to be questioning the wisdom of that in light of the terrorism
of the Palestinian Authority is a party to. Before, some $36 million went
directly to the Palestinian Authority, so most of the funding has been
going to non-governmental agencies. But even there, there's a substantial
question as to where the money ends up.
In 1995, Senator Shelby and I introduced an amendment to the
foreign operations bill, which prohibited governmental funding to the Palestinian
Authority until the Palestinian Authority made a maximum effort to avoid
terrorism and to recognize the state of Israel.
That is a very, very brief overview and a very brief
introduction.
We have a very distinguished panel of witnesses.
We're going to start, really, out of turn here today, with Mr.
Itamar Marcus, who's the director of the Palestinian Media Watch, showing
us these videos which, as I say, I saw a few days ago, and that will set
the stage for the witnesses from the administration, the witnesses from
the Palestinian Authority and our other witnesses.
Mr. Marcus, if you would identify yourself for the record, I
would appreciate it.
MARCUS: I'm director of Palestinian Media Watch.
SPECTER: And do you have in your possession certain videos?
MARCUS: Yes...
SPECTER: And where were the videos obtained?
MARCUS: Everything that you'll see was filmed on Palestinian
Authority television, this is PBC, Palestinian Broadcast Company, that
is owned and operated by the Palestinian Authority.
SPECTER: All right, would you please show those to the
subcommittee?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(UNKNOWN): "Ask for death" is the message the Palestinian
Authority has been conveying to its children since the start of violence
in October 2000.
In July of 2002, two articulate 11-year-old girls were
interviewed in the studio of official Palestinian television.
What has caused this compelling desire for death among these
children? The Palestinian Authority has been making a supreme effort to
convince their own children that there is no greater achievement than to
die for Allah in battle, known as shahada.
This indoctrination film clip is designed to offset a child's
natural fear of death. It portrays shahada as both heroic and tranquil
and was broadcast repeatedly over the last two years.
The film's hero, a nice-looking school boy, leaves his father a
farewell letter explaining his choice to carry out shahada.
This film was broadcast on official Palestinian television. Most
of the scenes portrayed blood and death. The film ends with this screen
displaying, in Arabic and in English: "Ask for death, the life will be
given to you."
In another film clip, "I Am The Shahid, My Mother," mothers are
urged to be joyous over the shahada death of their own children.
The Palestinian Authority's ministry of education textbooks
portray shahada as an ideal. For example, the home of the shahid appears
in textbooks on four grade levels and extols yearning for death.
A song honoring Wafa Idris, a first woman suicide terrorist, was
broadcast on Palestinian television three times.
The shahada mandate comes from top Palestinian political
leadership. The Palestinian Authority gives significant media exposure
to parents who praise their children's choice to die. Palestinian religious
leaders have been a driving force in calling for Palestinians to kill Jews,
especially through suicide bombings and direct these messages at children,
as well.
Palestinian polls show that 72 to 80 percent of Palestinian
children desire death as shahids. Having been repeatedly exposed to this
indoctrination, Palestinian children today actively set their sites on
shahada as a personal goal.
The Palestinian indoctrination has already led to the death of
Palestinian children. Young children have written farewell letters to
their parents, in which they expressed pride in their desire to die and
then set out on suicide terrorist attacks. The child, Yusef Zakut (ph),
wrote, "Don't cry for me. Bury me with my brothers and with the shahid."

The Palestinian Authority has created a violent, death-seeking
reality for the children. Having taught them to see death for Allah, shahada,
as an ideal which they are expected to achieve. The examples presented
in this report are representative selection demonstrating the comprehensive
campaign waged daily by the Palestinian Authority.
Even if just 1 percent of the children attempt to fulfill their
duty and seek shahada through suicide terrorism, the ramifications will
be cataclysmic. The targets of a future Palestinian terror wave will be
Israel and, in all likelihood, other Western democracies as well.
This education is an indelible stain on Palestinian society and
places the Palestinian Authority among the greatest child abusers in history.

(END VIDEOTAPE)
SPECTER: Thank you very much, Mr. Marcus.
The characterization at the end about child abusers is a vast
understatement. They are civilization abusers. The children are their
means to destroy civilization.
I will now proceed to the administration witnesses.
We will first call on Mr. David Satterfield. Ambassador
Satterfield is the deputy assistant secretary of state for Near Eastern
affairs. He previously had served as ambassador to Lebanon, director of
the State Department's office of Israel and Arab-Israeli affairs on the
National Security Council staff. Mr. Satterfield is presently with the
University of Maryland and Georgetown University.
Welcome, Mr. Satterfield.
We are going to limit the opening statements of witnesses to five
minutes. I have been commenting, when the announcement is made about the
limitation of time, to the memorial service for Ambassador Walter Annenberg,
where the time was three minutes. President Ford, Secretary of State Colin
Powell and I and others were given three minutes, so I want you to know
what a lengthy period five minutes is for an opening statement.
Thank you for joining us, Ambassador Satterfield, and the floor
is yours.
SATTERFIELD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would ask first that
my prepared statement be entered into the record. And I do have some brief
opening remarks to make.
The video clips that we've just seen -- and there are many others
that could have been chosen -- do indeed cultivate a climate of alienation,
hostility, incitement, what has been termed a culture of death rather than
a culture of life, hope and promise. As I said, many more images of this
kind could have been chosen.
The subject of this hearing today is a very serious one for the
administration. Indeed, Mr. Chairman, if we look back on the record of
the modern peace process since 1993, the issue which has been most problematic
for us and for our partners in peacemaking to address has been the challenge
of how one changes minds, hearts, and attitudes.
Frankly, too little attention was given to this challenge during
the many years of the peace process when focus was placed upon treaties,
agreements, understandings. They had their place, certainly, but the fundamental
changes in the way peoples look at each other and deal with other, the
way they look at themselves and their culture and society, that also has
to be addressed.
The administration, in pursuit of President Bush's vision of two
states, Israel and Palestine living together in peace and security, has
been focused upon building institutions for Palestinian statehood, upon
confronting the issue of incitement, incitement to violence, incitement
to death, wherever it may be found. This is a major challenge, and I cannot
minimize for you, Mr. Chairman, the magnitude of this problem.
We have been making efforts to try, with our partners in the
region and outside, with the Palestinian Authority and with the government
of Israel, and with institutions drawn from civil society on both sides,
to find ways in which to tackle this problem. I cannot tell you that this
is an issue which we have succeeded in addressing, which we have succeeded
in transforming from the type of images of hostility and death that you
just saw to something else. But we do believe some progress, and I'll
be quite honest, some progress is being made.
It's most important if we look at how one changes minds and
hearts to begin at the earliest stage possible in changing the nature of
the culture and changing the nature of views of one people toward another.
We have been successful, to an extent, in introducing changes into the
textbooks used by the Palestinian educational system, the public educational
system.
Those textbooks in the past were marked by overt anti-Semitism,
rejection of Israel, images of hostility towards Jews and Israelis, which
were absolutely unacceptable in any climate of peacemaking. The current
textbooks which are in the process of being introduced through grades kindergarten
to 12 sin more now by omission rather than commission.
The images of anti-Semitism have been largely removed, but we
want to see positive images of embracing Israel as a state, Israelis as
a people, put in. We don't just want the absence of negative images.
We want the presence of positive images.
And this is a challenge that remains before us. Some progress,
as I said, has been made, but much more needs to be done.
Mr. Chairman, those images which we witnessed, the challenge that
confronts us as we deal with Israel and Palestinian peacemaking, also is
reflected on a broader regional scale. We are committed to doing everything
possible, not just to addressing the call for death, the call for martyrdom,
which we saw here today, but also the continuing images of anti-Semitism,
rejection of Israel, rejection of Israelis, rejection of Jews as a people
who merit a life in peace and security in the Middle East and elsewhere
throughout the Middle East and the world.
Here, too, the challenge remains before us. Here, too, we have
not been fully successful in our efforts with other governments in the
region -- indeed outside -- in addressing this challenge. But the administration
is fully committed to apply what resources we have to this goal, and we
welcome the opportunity to appear here today in that pursuit. Thank you.

SPECTER: Ambassador Satterfield, the road map states that,
quote, "all official Palestinian institutions must end incitement against
Israel." And the road map requires the Palestinian Authority to, quote,
"undertake efforts on the ground to arrest, disrupt and restrain individuals
and groups conducting and planning violent attacks on Israelis anywhere."

Are those requirements being complied with by the Palestinian
Authority?
SATTERFIELD: No, Mr. Chairman, they are not. We had not seen
those basic steps necessary by the Palestinian Authority to confront violence
and terror being taken to the extent that the road map requires, and indeed
any meaningful progress toward peace mandates.
SPECTER: And the depiction shows Chairman Yasser Arafat on film
talking about shahid. What efforts are being made to combat Arafat's efforts
as depicted and shown on the screen?
SATTERFIELD: Mr. Chairman, the position of this administration
toward Mr. Arafat is very well known. We do not regard him as an interlocutor
for the purposes of peacemaking. We have sought, working with the government
of Israel, working with individuals in the Palestinian Authority and our
partners in the region and the international community, to see an empowered,
credible Palestinian leadership take office and move against terror and
violence as it moves toward the necessary institutional steps required
to see a Palestinian state achieved.
SPECTER: Ambassador Satterfield, in light of this kind of
filming, and in light of the failure of the Palestinian Authority to act
to restrain violence, what's the justification for the United States government
this year advancing $20 million to the Palestinian Authority?
SATTERFIELD: Mr. Chairman, that decision was made after careful
reflection upon the state of Prime Minister Abu Mazen's government, the
credibility of Minister of Finance Salam Fayed, the institutional checks
and balances which both our own system and auditing mechanisms in place,
and the credibility of Abu Mazen and Salem Fayed established. We would
not have taken this step, did not take this step, lightly.
We believe that that decision was appropriate. We believe that
those monies are accountable, fully, and that they went to purposes for
which they were intended.
Obviously, the administration will continue to look very closely
at any future issue of direct financing for the Palestinian Authority.
No such financing is under contemplation at this point. Were we to do
so, we would obviously consult with the Congress. We would also reflect
very carefully on the issue of transparency and accountability for funds.

SPECTER: When you say the monies have been accounted for, where
did the $20 million go?
SATTERFIELD: They went through the ministry of finance, under
mechanisms which we believe are transparent and accountable, for both salary
payments and repayment of debt to the Palestinian private sector.
SPECTER: Can you be more specific than that?
SATTERFIELD: Mr. Chairman, we can provide detail specifics on
where the $20 million went.
SPECTER: We'd like you to...
SATTERFIELD: Be happy to...
SPECTER: ... tell the subcommittee where every dime of the $20
million went.
SATTERFIELD: We'd be happy to.
SPECTER: Essentially what you're saying is $20 million was given
to the Palestinian Authority to help Abu Mazen in his effort to become
the prime minister. Is that about the size of it?
SATTERFIELD: Mr. Chairman, it was given to the Palestinian
Authority in a way that we believe bolstered the credible empowered authority
of Prime Minister Abu Mazen, of the ministry of finance, and institutional
mechanisms and safeguards which have been put in place under Minister Salam
Fayed.
SPECTER: Well, are you essentially saying that the way things
are today, with former Prime Minister Abu Mazen having departed, that there
will be no further payments by the United States government to the Palestinian
Authority?
SATTERFIELD: Mr. Chairman, that was a one-time direct payment;
the only such payment of its kind.
Before we would contemplate any such step in the future, we would
need to see in place an empowered, credible prime minister and cabinet
with unified security services under the control of the prime minister,
and tangible steps taken on the ground to confront terror and violence.

SPECTER: Would you go further and require proof that the
Palestinian Authority is not going to be showing these videos with young
people glorifying self-sacrifice in being suicide bombers?
SATTERFIELD: Mr. Chairman, we have made very clear: The
Palestinian Authority, to be viewed as a credible partner for peace, must
not just move against terror and violence -- that's obviously essential,
critical priority -- but also must move against the climate and culture
of incitement and violence which underlies the actual acts of terror.
SPECTER: Well, that's not quite a flat statement that additional
funds would not be advanced to the Palestinian Authority unless this kind
of propaganda was stopped. But can you give this subcommittee that assurance
flatly?
SATTERFIELD: I can assure you that we would not make any direct
funding available to the Palestinian Authority if there was any question
whatsoever regarding the commitment of that authority translated into action
on the ground, including with respect to incitement.
SPECTER: Like this...
SATTERFIELD: As was seen here.
SPECTER: OK, thank you Ambassador Satterfield. We appreciate
you coming over. We know you had commitments today and have asked to be
excused at this point and you are -- have been excused by the subcommittee.

Customarily we like the witnesses to stay because of there may be
some comments at a later time for response, but I understand your official
duty, so thank you.
SATTERFIELD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, appreciate this
opportunity.
SPECTER: Our next witness is a deputy assistant administrator
for Asia and Near East, Mr. James Kunder, director for Afghan reconstruction.
Mr. Kunder received his master's degree in international relations from
Georgetown, and his bachelor's in political science from Harvard University.

Thank you for joining us, Mr. Kunder, and we look forward to your
testimony.
KUNDER: Thank you Mr. Chairman. I have a prepared statement
with your permission I'd like to submit for the record.
SPECTER: Your statement will be made a part of the record.
KUNDER: I want to give a quick overview of U.S. foreign
assistance program in the areas in which the committee has expressed an
interest.
But just to start with, a personal comment: USAID throughout the
world, with the support of taxpayer dollars, uses the media for a number
of positive what we refer to as social marketing activities, in AIDS prevention
and better health care, participation of girls in school. And I just have
to say, at a personal level, to see this kind of perversion of media targeted
at children, knowing the powerful impact the media has on children, it's
an abomination to see this thing firsthand.
The U.S. Agency for International Development program targeted at
the Palestinians is, as you described earlier, primarily targeted at international
or Palestinian nongovernmental organizations, with the exception of the
$20 million direct cash transfer this past year.
It works in the area of humanitarian assistance and more broadly
at building Palestinian civil society so that there are voices of moderation
in the political debate in Palestine. And that includes support for independent
media organizations that show debate in the Palestinian Legislative Council
and otherwise bring in groups whose voices might not be heard in the Palestinian
debate. Following the congressional guidance and the law, we do not give
direct assistance to the Palestinian Broadcasting Company.
We recognize that our attempts to bring voices of moderation into
the political process, however, is subject to diversion of resources and,
therefore, we have put in place a range of safeguards, including the vetting
within the American embassy of all of the organizations, all of the grantees
and program partners with which we work.
We have in all of our grant agreements a certification
requirement that the organization receiving U.S. taxpayer dollars is not
passing any of that money through to terrorist organizations.
We have an extensive oversight operation where, consistent with
the security situation on the ground, either U.S. government direct- hire
employees or contractors are out monitoring the use of our funds to ensure
that there are not abuses or diversions and we are discussing these issues
on a regular basis with the Israeli authorities in the West Bank and Gaza.

So, from our view, the totality of the U.S. foreign aid program
is contributing to moderate voices being part of the Palestinian debate
and we've implemented a range of safeguards that we think ensure that U.S.
taxpayer dollars are going to the purposes for which they are intended.

And I'd be glad to answer any questions, sir.
SPECTER: Well, thank you very much, Mr. Kunder.
We have one further witness on this panel, Mr. Richard Solomon,
president of the U.S. Institute for Peace. We'd like Mr. Solomon to come
forward at this time.
Dr. Solomon has served as the president of the U.S. Institute of
Peace since 1993. He previously served as assistant secretary of state
for East Asia and Pacific affairs and director of policy planning at the
Department of State. He holds a Ph.D. in political science from the Massachusetts
Institute of Technology.
Thank you for joining us, Dr. Solomon, and we look forward to
your testimony.
SOLOMON: Good morning, Mr. Chairman and I -- my colleagues
really appreciate to be with you this morning. As you know, our institution
reports directly to the Labor, Health and Human Services Committee. You
fund our work directly in as much as we're an independent federal institution.

Normally, since I come up asking for financial support, it's a
pleasure to be able to describe to you some of our activities that relate
to this very serious issue that is on the agenda today.
The Institute of Peace, as I think you know, was created as an
educational institution and what I will describe is a shift in our work
over the last 20 years from educational activities largely focused here
within the United States to activities in zones of conflict around the
world. And those activities very substantially focus on the effort to
promote educational reform in Muslim societies, ranging from northern Africa,
the Middle East through South Asia and Southeast Asia.
Our objective is to try to mobilize those interested in reform,
reconciliation within these societies in the interest of promoting peaceful
resolution of disputes, reconciliation, tolerance and certainly countering
incitement. And what we have discovered, through a decade of activities
that began with work after the Dayton Accords, when we went into the Balkans
and worked with educators to promote an educational system that had been
corrupted by the Milosevic regime, was, of course, that education is a
very powerful tool for reform, for teaching reconciliation and breaking
the cycles of hatred and violence.
Indeed, the power of education is precisely why the extremists
have been trying to capture the madrassa system and turn it against even
existing Muslim governments; whether it's in Pakistan, Malaysia, or Indonesia.
And so our work is attempting to empower those who seek to use the educational
system for purposes of reconciliation.
One of the dilemmas our friends in these various parts of the
world face is that many of them do not have the national government resources
to fully fund their educational system, so that money comes in from abroad
from what you might characterize as interested parties who are trying to
turn the madrassa system in the direction of the kind of horrific propagation
of violence that we saw in the opening video.
Let me describe three very brief examples of the kind of work
that the United States Institute of Peace supports through its full range
of programming: our grant giving, our fellowship activity, our education
rule-of-law programs and our professional training activities.
The first example would be the effort to support the anti-
incitement commission that was established after the 1998 Wye River agreement.
And two of our board members -- former board members now -- Father Theodore
Hesburgh of Notre Dame and Shibley Telhami, professor at the University
of Maryland, were on the Anti-Incitement Commission, and two of my colleagues
who are with me here today, Dr. Jeff Helsing, who is with the education
program, and Steven Riskin, who's with our grant commission, they are more
specialists on this region than certainly I am.
They briefed the commission on our experience about educational
reform and efforts to limit incitement. Unfortunately, as Father Hesburgh
concluded, after a number of efforts to engage both sides in the region
was that issues of limiting incitement were just not open to discussion.
This is the late '90s.
The second example is our support for Seeds of Peace, an effort
to bring teenagers from the Israeli, Palestinian societies together in
the pristine, secure environment of northern Maine, an effort that's gone
on for 10 years and has engaged over 2,500 teenagers.
I think the Seeds of Peace experience, which is documented in a
book that we've published, written by John Wallach -- the late John Wallach,
who tragically died rather early, was that this kind of a cloistered experience,
if run professionally, can help to break stereotypes, hostilities, establish
friendships, and indeed what we find is that many of the Palestinian kids
that went back to society totally unsupportive of this reconciliation work
demonstrated real courage in resisting the return to the kind of attitudes
that we've seen here.
The third project was an effort in which we supported, a book
project by George Washington University Professor Dr. Nathan Brown, who
analyzed the situation in the Palestinians areas of reform following the
Oslo Accords. And his conclusions -- and he should speak for himself --
was that there had been modest change in the direction of a moving away
from the kind of inciteful textbooks and the educational material that
we've seen here today, but clearly much more incitement than we want to
see in these incidences, but some movement away from what it had been in
earlier times. And the clear fact is that the political context which
would support the moderating efforts of work like Seeds of Peace or the
kinds of reform efforts that Dr. Brown describes are at this point in time
just not supportive of significant reform.
So in conclusion, based on the experience of institute work, I
would say the four issues I would stress is that intergenerational cycles
of conflict and hatred can be broken, especially if you work with teenagers,
those who are much more impressionable, but unfortunately, as we've seen
in these videos, you can also see the opposite effect.
Secondly, educational reform is not a short-term process. Our
work with educational reformers in Northern Ireland indicates that this
is a decades-long effort.
Thirdly, we have found professional educators who are receptive
to reform, and our efforts are to support at the civil society level those
who want to see a curriculum that will encourage reconciliation and peace.

But fourth and most disturbing, of course, is that the political
context, the leadership that would encourage these kinds of reforms, is
in the Palestinian areas apparently totally lacking at this point, and
unless we have that kind of leadership it seems unlikely we will see sustained
efforts to promote this kind of reform.
Thank you.
SPECTER: Well, Dr. Solomon, when you talk about breaking the
pattern, if there is education of teenagers isn't it all going in the wrong
direction? Is there any effort being made to educate teenagers away from
the culture of violence?
SOLOMON: We have seen some efforts of that sort. We have...
SPECTER: Such as what?
SOLOMON: Well, here again, I think at this point we may want my
colleagues to give you much more detail. My formal testimony gives a number
of examples of institutions of civil society, not associated directly with
the Palestinian Authority, that are trying to promote a curriculum of reconciliation.

SPECTER: Well, what are they accomplishing?
RISKIN: Well, the institute has supported several initiatives...
SPECTER: Well, we hadn't planned to have more witnesses, but
step up and identify yourself and...
SOLOMON: This is Steven Riskin of our grant program.
SPECTER: What is your name, sir?
RISKIN: Steve Riskin. I work in the Institute's grant program.
SPECTER: I would like to know specifically what the Institute of
Peace is doing. We fund you $17.5 million from this subcommittee, and
I believe there's going to be an additional allocation of funding in the
supplemental appropriation. And my question to you: What specifically
are you doing to counteract that kind of virulent terrorism which is depicted
in those videos?
RISKIN: We're a bridge builder. We work with a variety of
organizations in the region that are moderate and that are interested in
removing the hate...
SPECTER: What are they doing?
RISKIN: In one instance, for example, Yesodot, which is the
Center for the Study of Torah and Democracy, they are bringing teachers
together...
SPECTER: Study of Torah and Democracy?
RISKIN: Torah and Muslim, Christian and Jewish liturgy to talk
about and to ferret out the areas where there is promotion of tolerance
and reconciliation.
SPECTER: Are you reaching teenagers such as those you saw in the
videos?
RISKIN: The work that we are doing with the teachers does
trickle down into the classroom. We have found that the religious communities,
particularly, and educators -- but particularly the religious community
were not involved or engaged in the Oslo process, and this is one area
that in the future they will not only be -- they have been -- religion
has been seen as being an impediment to the peace process. But here are
people on both sides, religious people, who are committed to promoting
non-violence and peace.
One of the other activities that we have been involved in as an
institute is the Alexandria Declaration. David Smock, who works in our
religion and peacemaking program, has been a proponent of this, and this
brought together Jewish, Christian and Muslim leaders in Cairo, and they
signed a declaration in support of the peace process and non-violent approaches
to resolving the conflict. And there is an array of activities that are
flowing from that.
SPECTER: I think at the level that you describe its commendable,
but it's not too impressive to talk about trickle down. How much of it
reaches the kind of young people we've seen on these videos?
RISKIN: There are other organizations that we have and are
supporting, like Neve Shalom, in addition to the Seeds of Peace program,
that directly relates to youth and gets them engaged with the other in
mutual understanding...
SPECTER: Palestinian youth?
RISKIN: Palestinian youth. There are organizations that work
both in Israel with Jews and Arabs, and across the Green Line, because
it's our view that what is happening in relations between Jews and Arabs
in Israel does have an impact across the Green Line as well.
But there are materials that are being developed, human rights
materials at the Hebrew University, both for Jewish and Arab classrooms.
There is teacher training that's going on. And this is certainly connected
to moving toward a resolution of the conflict.
SPECTER: How would you evaluate the effectiveness of all of that
contrasted with these propaganda videos, which are shown on Palestinian
television?
RISKIN: Well, this is a difficult environment, obviously. The
last three years the intensity of the conflict it is very difficult to
say, "OK, here's a huge success that we have had."
We're working with courageous moderates, educators, and in some
cases legal specialists, across the Green Line. These are people who are
committed to working together to resolve the conflict.
These are two competing narratives on the education front. We
have supported work -- and it's in the testimony -- Jewish and Arab educators
together looking at what is in the textbooks and seeing how events were
portrayed and trying to work out, not a unified history, but at least an
appreciation that can mend the -- and work has been done to translate that
appreciation into material that's used in classrooms.
SPECTER: Let me come back to my question. How effective is that
against this kind of video propaganda?
RISKIN: That's a difficult question to answer. We know it is
effective with the teachers who are engaged in these activities, because
they are committed to working with the other in mutual understanding.
And it is our hope -- and this work is to expand the pool of moderate in
this case educators working throughout the system.
SPECTER: We have seen the textbooks in the Palestinian schools
for a decade or more preaching violence, terrorism and hatred. Have those
textbooks been changed?
RISKIN: Dr. Solomon referred to the study here that we funded,
in part, that looked at those textbooks. And before 1993, as you may know,
the textbooks that were used in Gaza and the West Bank were Egyptian and
Jordanian and there was hateful material in those and those are no longer,
by and large, used.
There is now new material coming out and the study that we funded
indicates that progress has been made. Still, there are problems with
it, but significant progress about removing hateful references to Jews
and Israel -- in fact, the omissions that I think were mentioned earlier
talking about Israel from a Palestinian perspective isn't a difficult thing
to do as is for Israelis talking about where you draw the lines for a --
for a -- state. It's very difficult to present maps, for example, when
you don't know where the limits of your...
SPECTER: They're drawing the maps of the delineation of the
states. Do current textbooks given to Palestinian schools to fourth graders,
fifth graders, sixth graders, and seventh graders, contain hateful information
about Israel and Jews?
RISKIN: I have not done the study of those textbooks. I can
only refer to some of the work that's been done here.
It's been less than 10 years since there was a ministry of
education and there had -- reform is under way and I think its -- textbooks
at a few levels -- and there will be speakers later who can address this
-- there are textbooks at some of the levels that have come out that are
a step clearly in the right direction of removing hateful material.
SOLOMON: Mr. Chairman, let me just add...
SPECTER: Excuse me, Dr. Solomon.
The subcommittee would like an answer to the question
specifically. It shouldn't be too hard to answer. Those materials are
available and the subcommittee would like to know whether currently the
textbooks being used in Palestinian schools have hateful and inciteful
matters against Israel and Jews.
You wanted to say something Dr. Solomon?
SOLOMON: Well, I was just going to repeat, I think, my bottom
line on this is until you get a leadership in the Palestinian Authority
that is committed to reform and reconciliation the people that we work
with in civil society are not going to be reinforced, empowered, by their
own leadership and so that puts a substantial constraint on the impact
of the kinds of things we're supporting.
But you were certainly entitled to a full accounting of the
projects that we support and as best an answer to your question as we can
provide you.
SPECTER: Well, we'd like to have it, because every year we take
a look at your request for money, and the budget is extremely tight and
we'd like to know what value is being received by the United States government
for the $17 billion a year.
Mr. Kunder, I note that the administration requested $75 million
in direct aid for the Palestinian Authority for the fiscal year 2004. The
bill drafted by the Senate does not contain a specific dollar amount for
the Palestinians. Is there still a request by the administration for $75
million in direct aid for the Palestinian Authority, or has that changed
with the deterioration of the Palestinian government and the change of
prime minister?
KUNDER: Sir, I think Ambassador Satterfield stated exactly what
the situation is now that there would be no additional -- direct assistance
would be considered on a case-by-case basis. There would not be additional
assistance except in those cases in the circumstances being described that
all those guarantees would be met. So I take his answer to your earlier
question as the current state of play.
SPECTER: Mr. Kunder, where you fund humanitarian projects in the
West Bank and Gaza, does that result in the indirect release of funds which
can be used by the Palestinian Authority for terrorism?
KUNDER: Sir, whenever we're acting as stewards of the taxpayer
dollars anywhere around the world, I think the question of fungibility
always comes up. And we cannot deny that in any circumstance a dollar
is a dollar, so that a dollar going to any entity or any nation or any
NGO around the world can be seen as a dollar that that organization does
not have to locate or access from some other source. So at that level
of generality, of course, dollars going to any entity provide resources
that don't have to be raised somewhere else.
SPECTER: Well, it obviously poses a very difficult source. You
don't want to free up money to go to terrorist operations. And I know
there's a real effort to try to stimulate some moderate view within the
Palestinian Authority to try to advance the peace process. But to the
extent possible are you looking at situations where USAID might release
money for terrorism to avoid it were it all possible?
KUNDER: We have a specific certification required of all of our
grantees that's quite specific -- we'd certainly make a copy of it available
to you -- that goes into quite detailed requirements by any of our recipients
in terms of what they can do and cannot do in terms of the...
SPECTER: I'm familiar with the certification; it provides that
the Palestinian entities will not provide material support or resources
to any individual or entity which it knows or has reason to know is acting
as an agent or any individual or entity that advocates, plans, sponsors,
engages in or is engaged in terrorist activity. So that's what you were
referring to?
KUNDER: Yes, sir.
SPECTER: And we've been advised that many Palestinian partners
have refused to sign the pledge, is that correct?
KUNDER: That's correct, yes, sir.
SPECTER: When they refused to sign the pledge, do you give them
American money?
KUNDER: I'm sorry, sir, they...
SPECTER: When they refused to sign the pledge, do you advance
U.S. aid to them?
KUNDER: If this is an -- the certification is an absolute
requirement to receive USAID assistance. If an organization does not sign
the certification it will not receive any assistance.
SPECTER: OK, that's good news.
Well, thank you very much, gentlemen. It's a very, very
difficult issue, but what I think we have to look for is something that
does hand-to-hand combat with those videos. Is there any avenue available
for the United States or any other entity to put on videos to compete with
the videos which we've seen?
KUNDER: Sir, if I could, on page three of my testimony I didn't
capture it in my quick overview, but we go into some of the peace curriculum
and conflict resolution work that is being done, the development of curriculum
to be inserted into the Palestinian school systems. And these programs,
in answer to your question about what kind of impact, have reached tens
of thousands of students. And we will be glad to provide detailed descriptions
of those programs.
So there are certainly competing curricula out there.
SPECTER: Never mind curricula, any television? Curricula is
very passive. Television is very active. Any competing television?
KUNDER: Yes, sir. We are, both in terms of participation -- we
are funding the coverage, for example, of town meetings and alternative
moderate voices to lobby the Palestinian Legislative Council. Because
we know the power of this kind of media, we have actually funded some soap
operas that portray, and sometimes in some pretty controversial terms,
Israeli-Palestinian dialogue.
So, yes, sir, we take your point and we're doing some of that.
SPECTER: Anything that head-on hits the inducement to these
young Palestinians to commit suicide with a bombing?
KUNDER: Sir, to the best of my knowledge I don't think so, but I
will follow up and get that information to the committee.
SPECTER: Well, it's a subtle matter as to how you combat it. Do
you have people working on it to figure out how you do it, where you have
some perhaps other Palestinian teenagers talking about living and affirming
life and not hatred and suicide?
KUNDER: Frankly, sir, your hearing here today has -- will cause
us to look at all these issues more sharply in the future and we will look
at that.
SPECTER: Well, that's the first time I've heard of any hearing
doing any good, but it...
KUNDER: I'm quite serious; I'm not saying that to make you feel
good, Chairman, I'm quite serious.
SPECTER: All right, let us know what is being done at the
present time to combat that kind of inciting video of the suicide bombers
and what you have plans to do to come to hand-to-hand combat with that
kind of trash garbage incitement.
KUNDER: Yes, sir.
SPECTER: OK, thank you very much gentlemen.
I'd like to proceed now to our second panel: Dr. Hassan Abdul
Rahman, Dr. Ziad Asali and Dr. Morton Klein, and also Mr. Itamar Marcus.

Mr. Marcus, you've already identified yourself and thank you for
making those videos available to members of the Senate earlier and for
providing them to the hearing today. The floor is now yours for five minutes.

MARCUS: OK, thank you.
One of the challenges I think facing any funding of the
Palestinian Authority is that not only do the Palestinians use television,
as we've seen, the Palestinians use the full range of social structures
and cultural structures within Palestinian society in order to promote
these values. And I want to give you some examples, and you can actually
follow with some of these texts here on the screen.
So, for example, this summer there was a whole summer camp
infrastructure, which we would presume to get children out of the cities
and out into the country. And yet the summer camps infrastructure was
one that was focused, as well, on the suicide terrorists.
So, for example, there was a summer camp named after Wafa Idris,
who was the first woman suicide bomber. And if you look at the bottom
of the article here on the screen you'll see that UNICEF was thanked for
its support of the camps at the closing ceremony. So you have a camp named
after the first woman suicide bomber, UNICEF funding for this camp. We
had another camp for the Ayyat al-Akhras, 17-year-old girl, youngest suicide
bomber, again this summer so that summer camps are used as this means as
well.
Sporting events, which again is entertainment around the world
for children, have been a means, also, to raise and to create role models
for children who are terrorists.
So that, for example, just this past month, there was a major,
major soccer tournament in the Palestinian Authority. The sponsors of
the tournament were Saeb Erekat, Yasser Arafat, Jibril Rajoub, the minister
of sport, the mufti, all of the heads of the Palestinian Authority sponsoring
a soccer tournament, and each of the 24 teams was named after a different
shahid, a different martyr; including people like Yechya Ayash, who was
the first Hamas engineer, Dalal Mughrabi, who was involved in a hijacking
killing 36 including an American. So all of the heads of the Palestinian
Authority this summer put their names on a sports tournament glorifying
terrorists.
And this role modeling, by the way, and naming after terrorists
is not limited to terrorists who have killed Israelis. It includes terrorists
who have killed Americans in Iraq so, for example, we found in the Palestinian
newspaper just four days after the first suicide Iraqi terrorist killed
four U.S. Marines, the P.A. renamed the square in Jenin after that suicide
terrorist. So this role modeling and turning the terrorists into heroes
is directed not just at Israelis but at Americans as well.
Now I want to step back for one moment and I want to show you a
film here. We've been discussing the level of terrorism, but what we haven't
discussed at all is the level of ideology and I think this must be understood
because unless we understand why the Palestinians are teaching their children
to fight, we won't understand why they are participating in terrorism.

And I want to show you a short item here from an educational
program on Palestinian television. It's significant; the person speaking
is the head of a history department and in understanding what he is saying
to these children you will get a sense of the foundation of the conflict
that we are having today that continues until today.
(VIDEOTAPE PRESENTATION)
MARCUS: I start with this because I think this is why we still
have a conflict today; this message we have heard hundreds and hundreds
of times. Two Palestinians, both in formal and informal structures. "All
of Jewish history is lies; everything belongs to the Palestinians."
Interestingly, the new prime minister made this comment which
appeared in a Palestinian daily just after President Bush had made the
speech in June of this year talking about the Palestinians recognizing
Israel as a Jewish state. And he said, "What is the meaning and the concept
of a Jewish state? Does this means that this Jewish state, this is Sunni,
this is Shiite, this one is Christian? These differences could plunge
the region into whirlpool."
Even the new prime minister refuses to acknowledge that the Jews
are a nation having a right to a state; he puts us in the category of a
religion. And so we're seeing that this message isn't coming in the formal
education, it's coming from the political leader. It permeates Palestinian
society, and I feel this is a foundation of the conflict that continues
today.
This message continues even in the new schoolbooks that -- I will
beg to differ, it's not just a sin of omission in the new schoolbooks;
the new schoolbooks continue to delegitimize Israel. And I have a couple
of items here that appear in the very new schoolbooks. Israel is defined
as a colony and under the chapter on colonialism, "Palestine faced British
occupation after the First World War and Israeli occupation in 1948."
Israel it's foreign; they are an occupier.
Referring to Israeli cities and regions, like Beersheba on the
Negev, they're talked about Southern Palestine. The Sea of Galilee is
referred to as part of Palestine. There is no recognition in the schoolbooks.
People look at the maps, as you see here, in the Palestinian schoolbooks
and say, "It is because there are no final borders"; that is not the way
they're presenting it to their children. They're presenting it to their
children that this is Palestine. These are all pictures from new schoolbooks...

SPECTER: Mr. Marcus, you're a minute overtime. Could you sum up
at this point?
MARCUS: Yes. I just want to put the two messages together with
this final short video that you will see.
This is from a Palestinian graduation this summer, and it
combines the ideology as well as the desire that the children are being
taught for the use of force to achieve their goals. Again, this is Palestinian
television, a film from a high school graduation.
(VIDEOTAPE PRESENTATION)
MARCUS: OK, this summarized the essential conflict. Israeli
cities are still being portrayed to the children as Palestine and they
will liberate it through their stone and their knife. Thank you.
SPECTER: Thank you very much, Mr. Marcus.
We now turn to Dr. Hassan Abdul Rahman, chief representative of
the Palestinian Liberation Organization and the Palestinian Authority in
the United States. He attended universities in Puerto Rico before earning
his Ph.D. from the City University of New York.
And thank you for joining us; Dr. Rahman, and we look forward to
your testimony.
RAHMAN: Thank you, Senator Specter.
Let me announce at the start on the personal note I have four
children, three boys and a girl. The four of them attended the camp of
Seeds of Peace. I am a founder, or co-founder, with John Wallach -- late
John Wallach -- of that organization and my name was on the board of that
organization.
I'm a believer in the co-existence between the Palestinians and
the Israelis. I have struggled for that objective since my beginning as
a representative of the PLO in New York and the United Nations since 1974.

I don't need to establish my credentials as a supporter of peace.
I have on many occasions on Arabic television, as well as on American television,
objected, condemned suicide bombing. I am opposed to it, I am against
it, and this is the official policy, also, of the Palestinian National
Authority.
Mr. Marcus lives on a settlement on the West Bank. It is stolen
from the Palestinian people; it is a territory that has been taken away
from Palestinians in violation of the policy of the United States government,
which opposes the building of settlements in the Palestinian territories,
it is in violation of the fourth (ph) Geneva Convention, which considers
the transfer of population of the occupying power to the occupied territory
as illegal and as a war crime.
Having said that, I really hesitated before coming to appear
before this subcommittee for the very simple reason: There are two parties
to this conflict, Palestinian and Israeli. And there is incitement on
both sides. I see only the Palestinians brought to task here, and no mention
what the Israeli media, what the Israeli textbooks say or do not say about
the Palestinians. I would have liked the chairman, in the spirit of fairness,
to have a hearing on the incitement in both textbooks and both medias,
Palestinians as well as Israeli.
And then we would have not hesitated to appear before this
committee, because there are studies that are made on Israeli textbooks,
1,600 textbooks that never mention the word "Palestine" or the history
of the Palestinian people in the history of Palestine. Whenever there is
a reference to Palestine it is called Israel.
Mr. Marcus and his colleagues, the 200,000 armed settlers in the
West Bank and Gaza who stole the land of the Palestinians, are armed, and
they call the West Bank and Gaza as Judea and Samaria, they never call
it by its name.
No amount of education or teaching of the Palestinians, how
important it is, will change certain realities, Mr. Specter.
One, that there is three generations of Palestinians who have
been living in the military occupation: 35 years of brutal military occupation,
where bulldozers are used to demolish homes, where Apache helicopters given
by the United States to the government of Israel are attacking civilians
in Gaza and elsewhere, where the Israeli army sanctions the assassination,
extrajudicially, of Palestinian leaders without what you cherish the most,
the due process of law, in this country.
People do not need to be told that the Israeli settlers and the
Israeli soldiers are bad. They have to live in the West Bank and Gaza
in order to dislike and even hate the Israelis. Because the average Palestinian,
Mr. Specter, do not see (inaudible) in Ramallah. The average Palestinian
encounters two kinds of Israelis and both are armed: the soldier and the
settler. And both are there to humiliate, oppress, suppress the Palestinian.

If any American would live holed in his home for 20 or 30 days
under curfew I'm sure they would be angry. And anger is expressed by different
people in different ways. I, personally, would express my anger in a different
way. Others express it in a totally different way, which we do not sanction.

But instead of cursing the darkness, we have to light a candle.
We have to stop Israelis from building more settlements. We have to improve
the conditions for the Palestinians so they can have a stake in changing
their attitude, that when they see their parents, their neighbors, their
mothers, fathers, their sisters getting (inaudible) on checkpoints, humiliated
by Israeli soldiers, I assure you they will be angry, and you would be
angry.
I looked at those distorted tapes collected by Mr. Marcus, and I
can take an issue with every statement that was made there. But that's
not the objective and my goal today, because they are taken out of context,
they are translated out of the culture's meaning of what is said.
I remember that the battle cry for Patrick Henry, who wanted to
freedom, he said, "Give me liberty or give me death," and that was the
battle cry for the independence of this country. Every society has its
way of encouraging people to make sacrifices for independence, for freedom
and for dignity.
We need an understanding from you and from the Congress of the
United States that the only way to end incitement is by drying up the causes
of incitement: freedom for the Palestinians so they can live as equal
neighbors to Israel. But I assure you that the continued occupation of
the Palestinians, the denial of the God-given right to live as a free,
dignified people in their own country, is the biggest source of incitement.
Let's deal with the real issue and not with the effect. Let's deal with
the causes of incitement.
Thank you.
SPECTER: Well, thank you, Dr. Rahman.
We invited you here today, and others, to speak on behalf of the
Palestinian Authority because of our interest in hearing what you had to
say. And when you asked for time to state the incitement by Israel, we're
prepared to give you that time.
You spoke for longer than the allotted time, but there was quite
a bit on the other side, and I thought as a matter of fairness to hear
you out and wouldn't care to hear you further.
RAHMAN: Thank you.
SPECTER: If you care to amplify as to the incitement on the part
of the Israelis, we're prepared to give you whatever time you'd like to
have.
RAHMAN: No, Mr. Chairman, I know you are a fair person and I
know that you want to help. But again, what I wanted to say that after
the Wye River Accords, we established a trilateral commission of the Israelis,
Palestinians and Americans to monitor the media and monitor the incitement
on both sides.
And a great deal has been done in that regard. And we continue
to express our intention to work with the Israelis and with the Americans
to monitor the incitement on both sides.
But I cannot accept that the basis for the position of the United
States Senate will be a distorted videotape collected by Mr. Marcus, who
is a settler on the West Bank. That is absolutely unfair to the Palestinians,
because those are collections of items taken out of context, Senator.
They are not accurate translations of what has been said.
SPECTER: Well, Dr. Rahman, let's examine that.
Customarily, we go through the entire panel before questioning,
but we're going to proceed just a little differently because of what you've
said. I'm going to take a few minutes, then yield to Senator Clinton to
give her an opportunity to raise questions.
Were you saying the comments were taken out of context? We just
saw the videos, and I am not in a position to have translated them, but
we have seen teenagers and an 11-year-old girl say that she was prepared
to give her life as a suicide bomber in order to go to Heaven. Was that
an inaccurate translation of what she said?
RAHMAN: Well, what we -- well, she was saying she was making a
religious statement. Which every religion -- if I go to the Torah, I would
find references that I may not like. And I have, in fact, a statement
here about what happened in Jericho -- after the invasion of Jericho, and
it really -- I may not like it.
So we cannot translate religious statements into policy. There's
a difference there, Mr. Chairman, I'm sure that you are aware of that.
So we keep the religious discussion out of it.
When there's a reference to the professor of history, who said
something about the Wall, that it did not exist. But if you ask the Jewish,
followers of the Jewish religion, and ask them, "This Mohammed, was he
a prophet?" they would tell you no. I don't take that as an offense; that
is their religious belief. We have to put religion aside and we deal with
politics here.
If we want to take a statement that's made by a sheikh in a
mosque and base our policy on that statement, we go nowhere, and we would
reach the wrong conclusions.
I am saying that we have textbooks that we have to deal with. We
have television we have to deal with. We have incitement, yes. But the
incitement is the product of the conditions that exist in the Palestinian
territory.
SPECTER: Dr. Rahman, how about the part where the young man had
written a letter to his father saying "Do not grieve for me; I have given
my life for my country and I have sacrificed myself so that I can go to
Heaven"? Was that also a religious statement, or wasn't that a statement
by a young man who had, in fact, been a suicide bomber?
RAHMAN: If I remember correctly what was said, the kid is 14
years old, he is saying to his father, "When I become 18, I'm going to
fight for my country and be a shahid for my country." He did not do it;
he was not a shahid yet.
SPECTER: Dr. Rahman...
RAHMAN: If I quote correctly what I saw.
SPECTER: But, Dr. Rahman, isn't it true that there have been
very young people, Palestinians, who have become suicide bombers really
in carrying out just exactly the theme which we saw on the videos?
RAHMAN: Yes, sir, I believe that there has been, and there is,
and there may be going to be more suicide bombing.
Because you go today to Gaza, where 70 percent of the population
are unemployed and hungry, where do they turn to? They turn to God, they
turn to the mosque, and they are recruited there by the most vicious people.
So instead of why did not in the year 2000, Senator Specter, did not have
one suicide bombing? Why not? Because there was a light at the end of
the tunnel. People felt that finally they would be free. Not one single
suicide bombing in the year 2000 until the beginning of the intifada.
Why? People felt there was a possibility for peace.
So instead of cursing the darkness, we have really to light
candles. And candles are by telling people, "Listen, no more Jewish settlement
on Palestinian territories, there is no apartheid wall on the West Bank,
there is no assassination, no demolishing reforms, no destruction of crops,
no, no, no." Then people will have something to look for. But as long
as those things are continuing, I cannot guarantee that there will not
be suicide bombings.
SPECTER: Well, Dr. Rahman, I agree with you totally that, as you
have articulated, instead of cursing the darkness, let us light a candle.
Where do we go from here? When former Prime Minister Barak offered statehood
at Camp David and it was declined by Chairman Arafat, where do we go from
here? Where do we light the candle? How?
RAHMAN: Well, sir, I happen to be a witness to the Camp David
and I assure you that what Mr. Barak offered then was not an independent
Palestinian state. He offered the three cantons (ph) in the West Bank
that were not independent.
We have a road map today that is ahead of us, we agree to it, we
accept it, and I believe that it can guide our efforts to achieve peace.
If the Israelis are serious, we are serious we can get tomorrow into the
implementation of the road map.
What was offered in Camp David was unacceptable to the
Palestinians because it does not give back to them the minimum. The Palestinians
then were asking for 22 percent of historic Palestine and they were in
exchange conceding and recognizing the right of Israel within 78 percent
of historic Palestine.
SPECTER: Well, Dr. Rahman, in articulating with you that you
accept the road map, the road map calls for the Palestinian Authority to
exercise its maximum efforts to stop violence. Wouldn't that comprehend
stopping the playing of these kinds of videos which incites suicide bombing
by teenagers?
RAHMAN: Yes, the road map asks both parties to do certain
things. Asks the Palestinians to stop violence and to do everything within
their power to do that -- and we did achieve 51 days of total calm -- while
on the other side it asks the Israel to dismantle Jewish settlement, outposts
in the West Bank; it did not. They asked Israel to stop assassination
of Palestinians; it did not. It asked Israel to stop building the wall;
it did not.
So there were on both sides not total compliance, but we have 51
days of total quiet, while on the Israeli side within those 51 days over
80 Palestinians were killed by Israel.
SPECTER: If you have something to add, fine, if not let's turn
to Dr. Ziad Asali and we'll come back to you, Dr. Rahman...
RAHMAN: Thank you.
SPECTER: ... if you care to address the subject further.
Dr. Asali is president and founder of the American Task Force on
Palestine. He has been a member of the chairman's council of the American
Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee since 1982. He received his undergraduate
degree from American University of Beirut and an M.D. from the American
University of Beirut Medical School.
Thank you for joining us, Dr. Asali, and we look forward to your
testimony.
ASALI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It's an honor and a privilege
to appear before you.
SPECTER: Dr. Asali, they have just ordered a vote. And before
you testify -- not to interrupt you -- would be a good time for me to leave,
and I will be back in a very, very few minutes, and you can start at the
beginning and without interruptions.
ASALI: I will gladly wait.
SPECTER: Recess for a few moments.
ASALI: Thank you.
(RECESS)
SPECTER: The hearing will resume.
For those who are uninformed about the interruption, when we have
a vote, that takes precedence over everything. Sometimes a group of members
will be at the White House on some very important matter talking to the
president and the word comes through that there's a vote and we all leave.
The president can't even come and vote. It's kind of impolite in a sense,
but when the vote is called, we all go to vote.
But I came back as soon as I could because we want to proceed.
We have other witnesses and we're on a very important subject.
I saw Senator Clinton on her way to vote. She's going to return.
So now, Dr. Asali, what was yours?
ASALI: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
It is an honor and a privilege to appear before you. I received
an invitation to this hearing the night before last while at an Iftaar
dinner at the table of the president of the United States. At that time
I learned that other Arab-American Palestinian leaders had turned down
this opportunity and I myself was strongly advised against accepting it.
It is, however, my judgment that each and every occasion should be explored
to bring about peace and amity to the long-suffering Palestinian and Israeli
people.
I appear here before you as a citizen, a man concerned about the
tragic and dehumanizing cycle of violence in the Middle East, a physician
sworn to maintain the health and well-being of all people, and as an individual
who was born and raised in Jerusalem and was privileged to become an American
citizen and enjoy the benefits such as testifying before this august body.

Fear, anger, despair, violence and an almost exclusive sense of
victimization on both sides, the Palestinian and Israelis, have their most
damaging consequences in narrowing the space needed for policy options
and rational debate. Public discourse is stunted, simplistic and crude.
It is easier in this climate to follow the safe course of demonizing and
dehumanizing the other. To assume the worst and to impugn the motives
of the other is much safer than to explore the possibilities of compromise
and working out solutions. This is the kind of atmosphere that makes it
possible to advance racist and fascist arguments, sometimes openly stated,
but more oftentimes implied.
"They are not human, they understand nothing but force and
violence, we should never show them any mercy because they will think it
is a sign of weakness, a face for an eye." In short, a prescription for
more disasters and mayhem.
The problem with history is that it has been around for too long.
It has provided arguments based in fact and fiction or perceived wisdom
for each party to the conflict and even for those who seem to have no axe
to grind. The difference between the Palestinian and Israeli narratives
continues to feed polarizing and centrifugal forces that fail to see the
existential need for compromise. Each and every effort directed against
the vision of peace, the two-state solution so clearly stated by President
Bush, is yet another tool to extend the violent and destructive realities
of the status quo. It is in this context that we should view all facets
of this conflict, education included.
Because the time allotted for me is so brief, and because others
I know who have spent years studying this subject and writing about it
are not present on this panel, I'll sketch briefly the contours of the
argument as I see them for education for the record, including what I think
are useful and thoughtful studies about the issue of Palestinian textbooks,
and hope that people entrusted with making decisions about it or are serious
students of it will take time to read them.
Jordanian textbooks in the West Bank and Egyptian textbooks in
Gaza continue to be taught to students from 1948 though 1967 and for several
decades after that under Israeli occupation, until the problem of their
content was faced after Oslo by the Palestinian Authority in 1994. At
that time, the Curriculum Development Center, CDC, was established and
it began studying and overhauling the educational system and started over
to phase in a new set of books, beginning with the academic year 2000-2001.

Much if not all of the criticism leveled at the Palestinian
textbooks for incitement anti-Semitism or marginalizing Jewish history
has, in fact, been directed at the Egyptian and Jordanian textbooks over
which the Palestinians have no control. In fact, it was the Palestinians
who toiled for years after Oslo to give birth to reasoned and thoughtful
solutions with a unique issues that face a people under occupation and
how they should educate their children.
No serious scholarly substantive criticism has so far been
directed against the new books, although strident, emotionally charged
and factually challenged statements continue to be bandied about.
Akiva Eldar, the renowned Ha'aretz columnist, wrote in January 2,
2001, "That Palestinians are punished twice. First, they are criticized
for books produced by the education ministries of others. Secondly, their
children study from books that ignore their own nation's narratives."
I have included his article for the record.
The European Union, in a statement issued in Brussels on May 15,
2002, concluded that quotations attributed by earlier Center for Monitoring
the Impact on Peace, CMIP, are not found in the new Palestinian Authority
schoolbooks. "New textbooks, although not perfect, are free of inciteful
content and improve on the previous textbooks, constituting a valuable
contribution to the education of young Palestinians." It concluded, "Therefore,
allegations against the new textbooks funded by E.U. members have proven
unfounded." I've included that statement for the record.
The imminent scholar Nathan Brown, professor of political science
and international affairs at George Washington University, issued a 26-page
report in November 2001 prepared for the Adam Institute on Democracy, History
and the Contest over the Palestinian Curriculum that made a most significant
contribution to this subject. He concluded by saying, "Harsh external
critics of the PMA curriculum and textbooks have had to rely on misleading
and contentious reports to support the claim of incitement." The reading
of his full report that I included for the record is most compelling.
The daily life of the Palestinian children, with occupation,
closures, violence, demolitions, checkpoints, bravado, fear, suicide bombings,
air raids, humiliation, economic hardship, vengeance, religious extremism,
as well as the breakdown of traditional values, are realities, realities
that cannot be dissociated from the classroom. It is those realities that
we need to resolve by bringing about peace and security for all. Textbooks
that Israeli students read can also be reviewed to bridge the gap between
their realities and their classrooms as we improve on those realities,
too.
In conclusion, I would like to say that history has been unkind
to the Jews, the Israelis and the Palestinians. Their are narratives of
pogroms, ghettos, Holocaust, survival and achievements on the one hand,
and dispossession, occupation, demolition and humiliation, as well as resistance
and persistence on the other hand are but just sad tales of two people
caught in the complex web of history.
Let us at least, those of us with hope for humanity, try with our
thoughts focused on the future of our children, rather than the past of
our forefathers, work for peace and dignity for these two courageous people.
Let us not allow the demagogues of all sides, the violent elements and
the ones with the least sense of fundamental human values, dictate the
agenda and undermine peace.
Thank you for your attention.
SPECTER: Dr. Asali, thank you very much for joining this
subcommittee today and for that very profound statement.
When you talk as you did at the opening about both fear, anger,
despair, violence and almost an exclusive sense of victimization on both
sides, very poignant, very profound. And your conclusion about the unkindness
of history to the Jews, Israelis, Palestinians, and your call to prohibit
the demagogues and the violent elements and the ones with least sense of
fundamental human values dictate the agenda and undermine peace; again,
profound and right to the point.
What would your suggestion be as to where we go from this point
forward?
ASALI: It has been a most frustrating problem to me that the
collective will of people who do want peace, who want a two-state solution,
as expressed in polls showing that 70 percent of the American people, 70
percent of Jewish Americans, 65 percent of Israelis are all for a two-state
solution as we understand it, with the general two-for-two based, two-state,
shared Jerusalem, et cetera, et cetera.
That collective will has been undermined, vetoed and prevented
from fruition from more strident voices, more energetic and polarizing
forces that appeal to the lower instincts of people on all sides.
It is time to redefine this conflict, in my mind, as not one
between the Israelis and the Palestinians, between the Arabs and the Jews,
between the Muslims and the Christians; it is rather between those who
are for peace from all these categories, who are for the peaceful resolution
of this long conflict to establish a two-state solution, as defined by
so many people, and those who oppose it vehemently.
It is time to have those bridges established and have fundamental
relations and political forces realigned courageously and publicly and
take the credit or the blame for these stands in order to thwart the forces
that have used demagoguery, violence and whatever political or military
clout that they could to frustrate the rest of us.
SPECTER: Thank you, Dr. Asali.
ASALI: Thank you.
SPECTER: Senator Clinton, would you care to make an opening
statement at this time or question?
CLINTON: Well, I thank you very much, Senator Specter, for
holding this important hearing and I will submit my entire statement for
the record.
I wholeheartedly agree with what I heard as I came in from Dr.
Asali's testimony about advocating for a two-state solution that is premised
on security and peace and opportunity. And it's long been my position
that's the only option available for people of good faith.
It is troubling, though -- and that is something that I think we
have to recognize that -- that with the testimony and the documentary evidence
concerning the -- actually the glorification of suicide killers and the
incitement of young people to aspire to that position and the martyrdom
that it may in their minds offer them, that's very hard for any of us who
believe there has to be some resolution of the ongoing dispute to understand.

And I don't believe that there has been an adequate and
consistent repudiation of the rhetoric of hate and the incitement of young
people by the authorities in the Palestinian Authority. And I think that's
so important and I think it needs to be not just done once but over and
over and over again.
The position that I bring to this is that for, you know, many
years I've tried to do what I could to help children and to provide better
opportunities for them. And my heart goes out to the Palestinian children,
as well as the Israeli children, who had nothing to do with creating the
conditions in which this violence occurs and yet are having to grow up
fearful, having to grow up and see the losses of loved ones, for whatever
reason. You know, let's not talk about who did what to whom and what the
history is. But the fact is, we owe our children better than that, and
I think that it is just heart-breaking to see the portrayal of martyrdom
as something that a young child should be encouraged to hope for and aspire
to.
It's not just in the testimony and the evidence presented today,
but in many other settings I've seen similar messages and they are broadcast
on the Palestinian Authority TV played over and over again, children playing
death games, children, you know, being interviewed and, kind of, rotely
reciting that death by shahada is good. It is a chilling example, and
it is a real distortion of childhood and of adult responsibility.
I mean, we can have all the arguments we want and we can accuse
each other of all the wrongdoing that goes back as far as the mind can
remember, but we should not do it at the expense of, you know, further
undermining the opportunities and the futures of these children.
And so I just have to say that what is happening now and what
seems to be endorsed and supported by the Palestinian leadership, through
the P.A. TV, is troubling. And that has to end. I mean, there are many
other arguments still to be had. And as we all remember, you know, many
people thought that we were very close in the year 2000, from Camp David
forward, and we couldn't: We couldn't continue the negotiations; we couldn't
get a responsive partner on the other side. It was very discouraging.

But from my perspective, no matter what the ongoing political,
diplomatic, historical argument must be worked out, these horrible examples
of encouraging young people to be tools in this adult conflict is just
not to be condoned or permitted to continue.
You know, I saw reports of a recent book called "Army of Roses"
by Barbara Victor about women suicide bombers. You know, that's a new
development now. You know, I believe in women's participation in society
as fully as possible, it's just tragic that that is now a way in which
some women are choosing to conduct themselves.
But in this book, the author has very compelling evidence about
the fact that suicide bombers often are trained and brainwashed into seeing
themselves as these martyrs.
And the author did something which I found, as a mother, very
touching. You know, oftentimes you see the mothers of the suicide bombers
-- both young men and young women -- and, you know, they are appearing
fearless and very devoted to the cause and very proud of their daughter
or their son who's gone off to blow themselves up and kill others with
them.
But this author went behind the scenes and actually talked to
these mothers when the cameras were off, and they were reduced to tears
and they shared the feelings that any mother would about, "What is happening?
Why would my child do this?"
And often these are children with some of the very best futures
for a Palestinian state. These are children who are going to college,
these are children who had the opportunity to contribute to building a
strong Palestinian state. And instead they are, in my view, brainwashed
into committing suicide for reasons that have very little to do, other
than the continuing desire by those who encourage them to pursue a path
of terrorism and violence.
So there must be a way out of this on the diplomatic and
political front, but in the meantime all adults, no matter what our political
position, no matter what the grievances that we may carry toward another,
should be at least united in saying, "Let our children live to make their
own decisions in the future."
And it would be extremely beneficial to achieve the goals that I
think many of us -- or at least I'll speak for myself and what I heard
from Dr. Asali share of someday seeing the children of Israel and Palestine
living in peace to, without equivocation, repudiate and condemn this continuing
abuse of children and this incitement to hatred that we have much more
evidence of than just what has been presented by Mr. Marcus.
SPECTER: Thank you very much, Senator Clinton.
We now turn to our final witness on the panel, who is Dr. Morton
Klein, national president of the Zionist Organization of America, member
of the Executive Committee of the American/Israeli Public Affairs Committee.
He has led successful campaigns against anti- Israel bias in leading textbooks,
travel guides and the media. He served as an economist in the Nixon, Ford
and Carter administrations and has been an outspoken advocate against terrorism
in ways of bringing Palestinian terrorists to justice in the United States
under our Terrorist Prosecution Act.
Thank you for joining us, Dr. Klein, and the floor is yours.
KLEIN: Thank you, Senator, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for the opportunity to address this
panel and I would ask that my remarks be placed as part of the record.

SPECTER: Your full statement will remain part of the record, as
will all other full statements without objection.
KLEIN: And thank you, Senator Clinton, for being part of this
important discussion.
First of all, I want to make a few opening remarks. I was
troubled by -- I didn't understand Dr. Rahman initially stating that these
translations were inaccurate and incorrect and without telling us what
they really said, he then went on to say that, "They're simply religious
statements so they don't matter anyway." Well, it can't be both ways.

He also talked about the fact that Palestine -- that this was
Palestine-Arab land all these years. In fact, we should understand that
Palestine was never a country. It was only a region controlled by Turkey
and the British until 1948, and, in fact, even Mark Twain wrote an essay
in 1868 saying he went through the length and breadth of Palestine and
there was virtually no people there, there was just marshes and swamps;
he didn't understand why Jews even wanted to come and live there.
And I would ask if Dr. Rahman, you know, can he name any
Palestinian kings and queens? I mean, this was not a country of Palestinian
Arabs. And, in fact, of all the censuses done in Jerusalem, the majority
of people living in Jerusalem since the mid- 1800s was Jewish.
Also about the Barak deal, President Clinton and Dennis Ross, the
negotiator, made it clear that this was a real offer of 97 percent of Judea
and Samaria, contiguous land -- it was emphasized that this was contiguous
-- billions of dollars in aid, all of Gaza and half of Jerusalem. Ad instead
of having even a counter-offer, the Palestinian Authority essentially launched
a terror war.
And the reason that the Jews in Judea and Samaria are armed are
not to intimidate Palestinian Arabs or to hurt them, it's because they
are constantly threatened by terrorists; it's to defend themselves.
There's been virtually no terror attacks or killings, with rare
exceptions, of Palestinian Arabs by Jews who live in Judea and Samaria.
And I find it utterly racist, frankly, to ask Jews not to live in Judea
and Samaria. Why can't 200,000 Jews live among 2.5 million Arabs in Judea,
Samaria and Gaza when a million Arabs live among 5 million Jews in Israel
proper? I think we have to understand that.
And, by the way, there are many other polls, as Mr. Asali
mentions, some polls, The McLaughlin Group, Hanoch Smith, who is the Gallup
poll of Israel, showing a clear majority of Americans and Israelis against
the Palestinian state, because they believe it will be a terror state.

Tragically, in the last 10 years, there's not been a halt to
anti-Jewish and anti-Israel incitement in the schools, media and children's
camps. An entire culture of hatred had developed.
By the way, with the suicide bombers, the P.A. pays for such
posters of killers. This is one of the suicide bombing killers posted
all over the schools, universities, high schools, the streets, honoring
suicide bombers, paid for by the Palestinian Authority. It's just awful.

The children's camps teach Arab youngsters how to kidnap and
murder Jews. Streets, cites, schools, summer camps are named after the
suicide bombers honoring them. It's just a tragic situation.
If the Palestinian Authority were serious about peace, not only
would they end this culture of hatred and murder, they would confiscate
the tens of thousands of illegal weapons in the hands of terrorists, they
could get rid of Hamas and Islamic Jihad. Instead, they refuse to do anything.
They've arrested virtually no terrorists over this 10-year period. As
Madeleine Albright said, it's revolving- door justice. The few times they've
arrested terrorists, they were released within a matter of weeks or months.

Even Mahmoud Abbas and the current prime minister, Ahmed Qureia,
have vowed they will not fight against Hamas and Islamic Jihad.
This is not how we can get to peace.
The human rights abuses in the region -- in the Palestinian-Arab
territories are legion. Human Rights Watch, Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring
Group, have said that there is large-scale torture of dissidents perpetrated
by the Palestinian Authority regime and dozens of people have been tortured
and murdered in P.A. prisons. Christians are persecuted so ruthlessly
by the P.A. regime that several U.S. courts have granted Christians asylum
in America on the grounds that they would be persecuted for their religion
if they returned to P.A.- controlled territories.
And the P.A. continues to engage in actions hostile to the U.S.
It shelters dozens of terrorists who've been identified as murderers of
Americans. It refused only recently to permit the FBI to investigate the
recent terrorist murders of three U.S. diplomatic personnel. The P.A.
vociferously supported Saddam Hussein and other enemies to the U.S., and
constantly distributes vicious anti-American propaganda in the official
P.A. media.
It pays salaries to imprisoned terrorists who have murdered
Americans and names streets and parks after killers of American citizens.
The P.A. runs bomb factories and smuggles weapons through tunnels from
Egypt into Gaza and the violence, of course, continues.
How should we respond to this? Until now, I believe tragically,
mistakenly, I believe U.S. policy has been focused on trying to appease
the P.A. regime. Dennis Ross said recently that they made a serious mistake
ignoring this incitement for all these many years.
The present administration is offering the P.A. a sovereign state
and has more than doubled the annual aid allotment to $213 million. The
assumption is that offering funds in the state they would agree to live
in peace.
But recent studies show that suicide bombers are better educated
and more affluent than their fellow Palestinians. And a recent survey
shows a majority of Palestinians today want violence among Israelis to
continue even if a Palestinian state is established. That survey was done
only this past week.
And remember: Syria, Libya, Iraq and North Korea are sovereign
states. They're not lovely places. Sovereignty will not ensure a lovely,
civilized, democratic situation.
Throughout history appeasement has never worked. Professor
Donald Kagan of Yale, distinguished classicist (ph) historian, in his book
on the origins of war wrote in studying 3,000 years of international treaties,
appeasement has always failed in those 3,000 years and it hasn't worked
with the P.A. either.
The message given in speeches to Arab audiences by P.A. officials
constantly say that, "All of Palestine includes Israel and we must destroy
Israel." The message of wiping out Israel is reinforced in the maps, in
the offices and even on official P.A. letterhead. I happen to have an
actual letterhead that Hassan Abdul Rahman has used in his own testimonies
in the past. At the top there's an emblem of the Palestinian Authority
with a map -- you see the black there; the small -- it's all of Israel
as Palestinian. On their official stationary, used in testimony before
the Senate Subcommittee of Foreign Operations. And that is the message
that's being sent that all of Israel is Palestine.
The same with their atlases: The yellow there which is Israel
within the Green Line is described as Palestine, not as Israel. Israel
-- the name Israel doesn't appear on atlases whatsoever.
The time has come for a new approach; the time has come to
recognize the P.A. is not a partner for peace, it is a corrupt terrorist
regime that must be dismantled just as Saddam Hussein was dismantled.
Saddam's loyalists are not allowed to serve in the new Iraqi government,
and neither should those who are officers or officials in the present regime
be allowed to participate in any new regime that would be moderate and
peaceful.
There's strong precedent for cutting off relations with the
Palestinian Authority. The previous President Bush undertook an experiment
to test the PLO's intentions in 1988. When it failed, Bush acknowledged
the failure; the first President George Bush cut off relations. I believe
we must do this yet again.
Second, Congress must take immediate action with regard to the
P.A.'s educational system. Raising children to hate Jews, Israel and America
dooms any hope in the region for any serious peace. If you educate for
violence, you're going to get violence. We should make U.S. aid for the
Palestinian Arabs conditional and only if they completely reform their
educational system with serious new textbooks, new teachers, new maps and
other classroom materials.
Paul Johnson wrote, in his history of the Jews, "One of the
principle lessons of Jewish history is that repeated verbal slanders will
sooner or later be followed by violent physical deeds," and how true that
statement is. The aid should be linked not just to the small portion that
goes directly to the P.A.; the bulk of the $213 million aid package is
not sent directly to the P.A. but does assist the P.A. since money is fungible,
as we all understand.
And, finally, in addition, Congress should make further U.S.
contributions to UNRA conditional on changes in the Palestinian Arab schools
that UNRA administers. American public opinion supports suspension of
U.S. aid, 76 percent of Americans oppose financial aid to the Palestinian
Arabs according to a recent poll by McLaughlin and Associates.
Making the aid conditional in this way will accomplish three
crucial objectives. It'll put meaningful pressure on the P.A. to change
its educational system; it'll send a message to all regimes which promote
hatred that they may forfeit American assistance or friendship if they
fail to change their educational systems; and it will create the first
real hope of raising a generation in Gaza and Ramallah that will be willing
to live in peace with Israel. We must stop rewarding terrorism by funding
this regime.
Fuata Jami (ph), the great scholar at Hopkins, wrote, "We buy no
friendship in Arab lands; with pro-Palestinian diplomacy we ward off no
Arab-American terrorism."
And I'll end by saying I used to work for Professor Linus
Pauling, the great two-time Nobel Prize-winning chemist, as a bio- statistician.
I was responsible for analyzing the data at the end of experiments and
he would say to me, "Mort, I'm not interested in your hopes and dreams.
Tell me what the data requires us to believe."
I want peace. All of us want peace. But we must look at the
evidence. The evidence shows the Palestinian Authority tragically is not
interested in peace, it's interested in working to destroy Israel as a
Jewish state. And at this point we should do everything at our disposal
to end aid to the Palestinian Authority until it changes and to end relations
until it changes. This would have an electric effect by saying, as we
haven't said, that there is a price to be paid for the constant outrages
against Israelis who will not go by simply saying, "We're sorry about the
deaths, let's continue negotiations."
If we end negotiations it would send a message that the P.A.
would have to make a serious choice: either negotiate and end terrorism,
or there will be no hope of them achieving anything.
So I urge this panel to consider ending aid to the P.A., ending
relations, until there's a dramatic transformation of P.A. authority. Stop
rewarding terrorism. Thank you very much.
SPECTER: Thank you, Dr. Klein.
Before going to a round of questioning, five minutes by the
members of the panel here, we'll give Dr. Rahman an opportunity, if he
chooses to, to respond to any of the comments made by Dr. Klein.
RAHMAN: I honestly don't know where to start, Senator. But I
can assure you...
SPECTER: You can take your time, Dr. Rahman. We've allowed
overtime here because of the importance of the subject and also because
of the passion of the subject.
RAHMAN: I think at the outset of my intervention I made it clear
that I'm one of those who believe in the two-state solution; I have struggled
for it, I continue to believe that the only way to achieve an end to the
tragic situation that we both live in.
I just want to -- first of all, Mr. Klein showed a poster. He
said this is a suicide bomber and it is paid for by the Palestinian Authority.
First of all, the name on that poster is that of Yaka Aliesh (ph), who
was assassinated in 1999, and it is a Hamas poster and this is not even
a Palestinian Authority poster. It just shows you the example of the distortions
that I am talking about.
Second I have here in my hand a map that was published just a few
days ago by the Israeli minister of defense. I don't see the name "Palestine"
on it. And I don't see a delineation of the West Bank and Gaza. On the
contrary, what I see here is the wall -- separating wall. So if Israel
has not told us where its borders end and where the Palestinian state starts,
how can we do it unilaterally?
Listen, I acknowledge, and I say that from the very beginning,
that there is incitement on both sides. On the Palestinian side there
is incitement, which we call nationalistic (inaudible). I may agree or
disagree, but that is the explanation that is given. On the Israeli side
there is not only incitement, but actions on the ground that instigate
violence, which I totally oppose the violence as well as the actions by
Israel.
Let's take part of the statements that Mr. Klein made. He never
referred to Palestine; he never said he recognizes the right of the Palestinian
people to have a state. In fact, all his arguments were against an independent
Palestinian state. He referred to it as Judea and Samaria, rather than
the West Bank and Gaza, the name which is known by everyone.
So what I'm here to say that the demagogues on both sides,
whether it is on our side or on this side, are the dangerous element, they
are really confiscating our agenda.
What we are trying to do is to bring back the agenda to the
people. That's why we support efforts like those made by Mr. Iyalone (ph)
with Museli Useiba (ph). We support efforts that are made by the group
that went to Geneva, the Geneva document that was drafted by Yosef Damen
(ph) and Yasser Abed Rabbo and groups that really function by the Palestinian
Authority with the hope to tell both sides that there is an alternative
to this quagmire that we live in and that there is a possibility.
And, Mr. Chairman, I really would like to see an effort
supporting those efforts made by those people, by the people who are pushing
peace and not taking us back to the confrontation like we see today here.

I am making speeches around the country of the United States to
the Palestinian Arab community telling them that we have an option and
the option is that, while worked out in Geneva, the option is the road
map, the option is the statement that was made by Museli Useiba (ph) and
Iyalone (ph). Those are the kinds of efforts that we want really to highlight
and encourage and show that both Palestinians and Americans and Israelis
that there is a way out and we seek your support in those efforts.
SPECTER: Senator Clinton has another commitment, so we'll yield
to Senator Clinton at this point for questioning.
CLINTON: I thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Dr. Rahman, can I just focus on the issue before us? And perhaps
it is a narrow issue but I think it's a fundamental and profound one. Will
the Palestinian Authority direct the P.A. TV to remove any reference to
martyrdom, shahada and the glorification of suicide bombers from the television?

RAHMAN: Senator Clinton, there was an effort made by the
previous government of Mahmoud Abbas and there was a meeting held between
Nabil Amr, who is the minister of information, and Mr. Sharon, the foreign
minister of Israel, working toward that end. How can we improve the coverage
in both areas, in the Palestinian as well as on the Israeli television?
And even Mr. Sharon acknowledged then that progress was made.
Yes, the answer to your question, yes, we are making an effort.
But again, I mean I understand that you are -- we want to focus
on this issue, but I personally honestly cannot separate this from the
wider context.
CLINTON: I understand that and I...
RAHMAN: Therefore we cannot really, Senator -- and I hate to
interrupt -- but we cannot overlook the situation on the ground. Because
this was one injustice, the whole thing.
CLINTON: But I understand your position, and I can only say that
there are many -- in fact, myriad of issues of importance to be discussed
between the Israelis and the Palestinians if there is to be any hope of
resolution.
But on this issue, I do not understand why the Palestinian
Authority cannot separate out a legitimate perspective on what is happening
and -- look, we all see everything through the prism of our own experience.
So the news coverage on the Palestinian TV is certainly going to be very
different than the news coverage on the Israeli TV or on American TV; we
all understand that.
But I'm talking about the affirmative support that the
Palestinian Authority is giving in rhetoric and in propaganda and through
the media to this phenomenon of suicide bombing. Now to me, that is separable.

I'm not asking that you would in any way advocate what you view
as your rightful perspective to say that you disagree with settlements
or you disagree with, you know, other policy of the Israeli government.
Of course, that is part of the dispute that has to be resolved.
But on this issue, it was for many years not a part of the
repertoire of either incitement or violence by those who are influenced
or directed by any group in Palestine. Now it has become the weapon of
choice.
And it seems to me that there is a very big difference from
people arming themselves, however much I may disrespect that or disagree
with it, and going forth to do battle with whomever they see as the enemy
and having young people strap bombs on themselves, going forth, killing
themselves, killing other innocent people and then being glorified.
Now, that to me is a separate issue that should be addressed in
order to demonstrate what you are telling us, which is that the Palestinian
Authority does wish to engage in an ongoing effort, they do wish to create
circumstances for a two-state solution, and they do wish to be separated
from the demagogues and the terrorists. This would be a very strong piece
of evidence that is not just rhetoric but action.
I don't see where it undermines the Palestinian position. In
fact, I think it strengthens the legitimate Palestinian Authority position
to be separate from those who would engage in such incitement and, in fact,
in my view, brainwashing of young people for such horrible purposes.
And why can't we just focus on that one thing? There -- we'll
never in this forum resolve the other issues that separate the parties.

RAHMAN: Senator, I perceive your outrage about suicide bombers
because I am outraged by it, too, personally, and I believe that the majority
of the Palestinian people, not withstanding what has been stated here.

I agree that suicide bombing is unacceptable, it has to be
rejected, et cetera, et cetera. Everything, anything that you want to
say against it, I would say it even more and harder, because I would never
support a culture of death. We want our children to live like I want my
children to be productive and live as a productive citizen.
I have said that, and I believe that we also have to be careful
about what we say here today. There is a difference, Senator, and I don't
want to be put in the position where I have to make explanations for things
that I do not believe in and I don't agree with.
But there is a difference between shahada and suicide bombing.
You have really to realize this. Shahada is leading to sacrifice for your
own country and you say that to your people and Americans said it and the
Israelis call on their young people to do it every day. To sacrifice in
order to protect their homeland, that is shahada. But suicide bombing
is totally something different. And we cannot confuse the two and we cannot
accept the confusion between the two.
So, please what I'm trying to explain here that what we saw today
here when you seek shahada, that does not mean suicide bombing. It does
not.
SPECTER: Dr. Rahman, as we have seen, the videos of shahada has
been equated with suicide bombing. Why do you say that there is a difference?

RAHMAN: I'll tell you why. Because when President Arafat was
shown here and he had -- the reporter asked him, he told -- he asked him,
"What message do you give to the people?" he said that, "This young 14
years old kid is facing an Israeli tank with a stone, and he was shahid."
Meaning that the Israelis shot him and they killed him. He was not a suicide
bomber. And this boy, yes, he was 14 years old and he was killed by the
Israeli army...
SPECTER: But when...
RAHMAN: So he was not a suicide bomber, he was standing in front
of a tank with a stone. So does that mean that he was a suicide bomber?

SPECTER: But we have seen on the videos repeatedly an 11-year-
old, a 14-year-old, a 12-year-old say that they wish shahada, and they
plan to give their life as a martyr in a suicide bombing.
RAHMAN: Not suicide bomber, I did not hear it once and I'm
willing to listen to it again.
SPECTER: Well, I think that Senator Clinton has...
RAHMAN: I want to listen to it again. It does not say suicide
bombers, sir.
SPECTER: Well, let's see it again.
I think before you do, just let me say that I think Senator
Clinton has put her finger on the critical point about the Palestinian
Authority repudiating suicide bombing and acting to take it off of television.
And what I will do is I'm going to send a transcript of this hearing to
Chairman Arafat and to the Palestinian Authority prime minister with the
question will they act to stop Palestinian television carrying these messages.

But let's take a look at it again.
KLEIN: If I may say something, the film that we saw, the two
girls expressed the desire to achieve the shahada, the death for Allah.
At the end there was a caller who called in and they spoke about a 17-year-old
girl who actually did go and was a suicide bomber, ayatallhof (ph).
SPECTER: Let us turn to the films themselves, and if you care to
make a commentary after you show the film that would be the appropriate
time.
(VIDEOTAPE PRESENTATION)
SPECTER: Right there, Mr. Marcus, will you stop it? Right
there, where you say the shahids go to Paradise, isn't that in the context,
Dr. Rahman, of a suicide bombing?
RAHMAN: Not necessarily. I may become a shahid even praying --
praying, not fighting. Going to Mecca as a pilgrim I can die and become
a shahid. So this is a religious connotation. It has nothing to do with
suicide bombing.
SPECTER: Mr. Marcus, proceed with the...
MARCUS: Yes, in the context of this video, the two first girls
are talking about their desire for the shahada. The third girl who is
speaking was specifically applying this to a 17-year-old suicide bomber.
And the moderator said, "Is this natural for a 17-year-old girl to blow
herself up?" And she said, "Yes, it is natural." And the two girls in
the continuation, which wasn't shown for time limitations, were actually
asked about this and then expressed similar sentiments.
So, shahada definitely can mean anyone who has died in a
conflict. The Palestinians define all of the suicide bombers as shahids,
as martyrs...
SPECTER: Let us proceed with the video and ask Dr. Rahman or Dr.
Asali if they agree with other portions that it equates with suicide bombers.

(VIDEOTAPE PRESENTATION)
MARCUS: OK, that was it. So, "Is it natural for a 17-year-old
to blow herself up to become a shahid?" and the answer was, "It is natural."
So that is the way it is presented.
SPECTER: What do you think, Dr. Asali?
RAHMAN: Yes, this is a talk show, Senator. Somebody expressing
-- it is not -- he is -- the reporter is not telling her, but she is saying
that, "I want to sacrifice for my country and I" -- they are, in fact,
even Al Jazeera network, every single Arab network refers to suicide bombers
as shahada.
That is -- it is religious. Whether he is shahid or not I am not
ready to really make a judgment on him. I personally call it suicide bombers.
Others call it shahid. But shahada is not exclusive to suicide bombers,
that's what I'm trying to say.
What I'm trying to say here is we -- this is an inclusive, anyone
who sacrifices for his country is a shahid, so we cannot tell people, "Don't
sacrifice for your country."
SPECTER: Dr. Asali?
ASALI: Actually, the literal translation, if there is such a
thing for a word that exists only in Arabic, of shahid or shahada is "the
one who dies for the sake of God." It is a religious concept. Anybody
who dies in conflict, for instance at a war, would be a shahid. Anybody
who would be killed by an enemy who is fighting the Arabs or the Muslims,
et cetera, would be a shahid. Somebody would be at prayer and he would
be killed without lifting a finger, he would be a shahid. So we need to
understand it at that context.
Actually the -- you know, we may run the risk of trying to get
bogged down in minutiae. I think those videos do show a highly developed
level of frustration that these young people have achieved in their own
life of complete frustration with the way they live that they do, in fact,
condone and consider it natural for a 17-year-old person to die like this.
You know, I do...
SPECTER: To die as a martyr.
ASALI: As a martyr, as a martyr.
I do want to mention something. You know, the day-to-day life of
the Palestinians under the present circumstances is really rather unbearable.
You know, there are 160 checkpoints in Palestine. There are, like, 5,000
houses demolished. There are 128 Palestinian women who gave birth at checkpoints.
Seventy percent malnutrition, terrible way of life.
These people are, by definition, liable to be exploited by those
who would have appealed to their sense of frustration to do things like,
you know, suicide bombing or whatever. We do need to put that into a political
context to resolve this question and not focus very, very narrowly on these
people.
Actually, the whole problem of suicide bombing, if I may say, is
two problems that are lumped together. One is for the young people themselves
who blow themselves up, and another is for the people who send them to
do that. These young kids just don't go off, you know; they have to have
a support system somewhere that exploits their sense of frustration.
They are, by and large, perhaps innocent and somehow sometimes
privileged kids who feel so absolutely desperate and losing their dignity
and their future so the others, who are much more calculating and none
of them as young and none of them would send their own kids to do this,
would take advantage of that situation. That puts the whole problem in
a political context that we cannot avoid.
SPECTER: Well, I think we've gone about as far as we can go on
this particular interpretation. It's now noon. It's been a very long
hearing and we thank you all for staying.
I know people want to make additional comments, so what I would
like to do is give each of you two minutes to sum up.
Mr. Marcus, you had asked for an opportunity to reply to some of
the things, which have been said. If you could limit it to two minutes,
we'd appreciate it. We're going to have another vote here within the hour
and there are another of other things which have to be taken care of, so
to the extent you can hold yourself to two minutes, we'd appreciate it.

MARCUS: The Palestinian Authority has been giving active
promotion to suicide bombings. When teenage children participate in the
summer camp named after Ayyat al-Akhras, the 17-year-old girl who was a
suicide bomber, there is no greater promotion and no greater role modeling
for teenagers than telling them, "This is a person who we are admiring."
The fact that Dr. Rahman is arguing about the nuance of a film does not
erase the entire society's promotion of the suicide bombing as well as
the shahada, especially amongst children as well.
Dr. Rahman commented on the religious nature of this belief. And
that is not an excuse; that is, in fact, even worse. These children are
taught -- and we're talking about a very religious society, the Palestinian
society. These children are taught that they have the religious achievement.

This is not true that these children are frustrated and that's
why they're blowing themselves up. They are blowing themselves up because
they want to aspire to the afterlife; they have been convinced, because
of their religious beliefs that they have been ingrained with, that doing
this, this type of a suicide bombing or just achieving the shahada, will
actually give them great rewards in the future. So the religious component
actually compounds the problem, and that's why 11-year-olds are talking
about, "We don't care about this life, we only care about the afterlife."

SPECTER: Dr. Rahman, would you care to sum up?
RAHMAN: Well, I'm listening and I cannot really believe what I
heard, because Mr. Marcus is on the West Bank because he believes that
God gave him that land. That's a religious statement and he is opposing
Palestinians for being religious. What else of an argument that he has
to be on the West Bank except that he is Jewish?
Listen, I would say the following: We do not support suicide
bombers. We, the Palestinian Authority, made itself very clear on this
issue over and over again. We are looking for the opportunity to take
action when the Israeli army, with those from the West Bank because while
we have 50,000 Israeli soldiers in the West Bank and in Gaza it is impossible
for the Palestinian security forces to take action.
We are ready to do that, however, your prime minister just made a
statement yesterday; he said, "We are ready to declare a unilateral cease-fire."
He's engaged in the Palestinian organization. We hope that the Israeli
government will participate and accept an overall cease-fire that will
end the violence between these two peoples so we can really put things
on the path of political negotiations.

SPECTER: Would that cease-fire bind Hamas and Islamic Jihad?
RAHMAN: Yes, absolutely. That's what he said, he said, "I am
negotiating with Hamas and Jihad Islam and every other organization for
a unilateral cease-fire, which I'm going to take it to the Israelis and
I hope that the Israelis will reciprocate and we can turn it into a permanent
cease-fire and move on to political negotiations." And I hope that Israelis
will reciprocate.
SPECTER: Dr. Asali, would you care to sum up?
ASALI: Yes, thank you. It is always helpful in this conflict to
tone down the rhetoric. I think we should focus on the grand political
objective.
A two-state solution cannot be achieved to be negotiated through
the Israelis and the Palestinians left to their own devices. Political
will, political muscle, has to be applied, especially in this country which
is the only country that is in a position to do so, to make it happen by
applying the needed incentives, rewards and disincentives to both parties.

SPECTER: Thank you, Dr. Asali.
Dr. Klein, would you care to sum up?

KLEIN: Yes, first of all, I wanted to mention Israel has handed
over to the Bush administration literally thousands of documents showing
that the Palestinian Authority has paid for the types of posters that I
just showed here. This has been written up and shown in Time magazine
and many other major publications, the actual documents.
In addition, the schools, camps and streets are named after
suicide bombers who have murdered Israelis, not martyrs who have died in
some other way.
And the polls, by the way, by the own Palestinian Authority
pollsters show that 60 to 90 percent of Palestinians tragically and shockingly
support suicide bombings. And, in fact, when Joseph Lelyveld the former
editor in chief of the New York Times, wrote an article about suicide bombers
families, he wrote that he was shocked and stunned that when he interviewed
the families they said how proud they are of their children who have killed
themselves while murdering Jews.
And, finally, the checkpoints are there to stop terrorism coming
into Israel. If there was no terrorism there'd be no more checkpoints;
there'd be an end to checkpoints.
And I find it really tragically and disappointedly a racist
statement to say that Jews shouldn't live in Judea and Samaria. This was
uninhabited land where the Jews have moved into.
And this cease-fire -- we don't need a temporary cease-fire.
That would be pleasant. It didn't work before and cease-fires are something
that will not work on any long-term situation. We must have the P.A. arrest
the terrorists and outlaw Hamas and Islamic Jihad and we must have Hassan
Abdul Rahman and others in the territories and ask him to stop showing
all of Israel as Palestine on their official stationary on their maps and
their atlases. So I'd ask Dr. Rahman to change this stationary and stop
sending the message that all of Israel is Palestine.
Thank you very much.

SPECTER: Gentlemen, thank you very much.
I intend to send this transcript to Chairman Arafat and the prime
minister of the Palestinian Authority with the request that they stop showing
these videos on Palestinian television.
That concludes our hearing. Thank you all.

END


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